Feed Rationing

My corn averaged 210bu/AC last year. That’s 11,760lbs of shell corn per acre. I shoot for 25tons of silage per acre. 11,760/50,000= 0.2352 I feed 25 lbs of silage/hd/day . 0.2352*25 = 5.88 lbs of shell corn/ day for normal winter weather.

Except for 1 or 2 boss cows that are over fat. I d say my herd is a solid 6-6.5 bcs. They are definitely not to fat.
Yup. I understand. Like I said, it's all a matter of perspective. My whole point was, I DO wish that my herd too was made up more of the best looking 20% of them that are out there. Older cows, that consistently maintain pretty good body condition and breed back every year, on time, on an only grass/hay diet... including mostly on winter stockpile through the winter months... in Minnesota.

That's a pretty high ask, in most guys book. And my herd is NOT there.. only that top 20% are "there". The next 50% "could be doing better", but they're acceptable. You have to realize that I only started this herd from scratch in 2018, with some of my base genetics being dairy-cross cows (I started my own herd out by being paid for custom grazing... in dairy crossbred black-hided heifer calves)... and they are VERY obvious and easy to pick out, even to any untrained eye, IMO. I'm critical of my critters looks, intentionally. I don't wean my calves... the cows do that, at will. So they're milking through the winter, on grass only, while carrying a new calf, as well. With no grain. And with no barn, or feedlot windbreak... they just can get in the wake of some trees on the worst days as necessary. In Minnesota.

Could they look better if I fed them grain? You bet, no question, and I'm tempted to at times... but I'm raising "100% grass-fed beef". And if I fed them enough grain, most of them (more likely all of them) could/would be carrying a much stronger BCS... if I put them on a "high grain fattner/finishing" diet, I'm sure I could make them all "fat" even, eventually. But I don't. I make sure they have all the grass hay they'll reasonably consume (I WANT some hay "waste" to be left on the field), fed mostly daily so it's always fresh.

My intention is not to imply that your system is "poor" or "wrong" or "bad", NOT AT ALL. Your animals I'm sure are in fine shape, and you're a great manager.

My whole point then though is, if the critters in one herd (i.e.: yours) are getting corn silage with about 5.5#/day of corn grain in it as their main ration daily, plus hay as desired, plus additional grain anytime it's going to get down into single digits, in Illinois... and my critters are on the regimen that they're on........ in which herd would we be more likely to find out which animals in the herd can maintain reasonable condition, maintain fertility and breed back on time, grow a calf and deliver it without trouble, and raise it on grass pasture only through the summer, and do it all over again next year, ON MINIMAL INPUTS? If we don't "test", we'll never find out which ones can and which ones can't do it.

A few of my cows are at 10+ calves (I did buy a few older cows when I started too), the majority of the "cows" (not heifers coming in each year) are right now at 3-5 calves. And they're still staying "on time". Calving window this year is from April 5 (less than 10% in April) - June 20. My "ideal target" is May 1 - June 20. I seldom assist or watch them calve... they do it on pasture, mostly on their own. Could I have better genetics? You bet! That's what I'm working toward... as are most cattlemen. I'm doing it from within, for the most part, because I don't know anybody else that I could get genetics from that is "testing/proving" their animals in the same way. Would I generally recommend or sell some of my current genetics to someone else? Nope. For the most part, they're not great-looking animals... but they do raise some pretty nice calves that I deliver to the butcher shop. I WISH that I hadn't started out with those dairy cross critters... because those that are pure beef genetics are much better looking animals. The weird thing is, just because they LOOK better, doesn't always mean that they "get the job done" better. Those diary-crossed cows somehow seem to breed back and hang in there, in spite of having a low BCS. I moved out a number of them at last preg check that didn't breed back or that were "late calvers", and I was looking forward to moving them on down the road.

My whole point is, if we want to have animals that can do it on their own, without grain............... we have to put them in that management format... and then watch which ones can still "make it" and which ones can't. Some will be keepers. Most won't. Particularly in today's beef genetics that have been bred to perform in a feedlot.
 
Good ''feed'' is the key. Harvesting ''good'' forage is not a simple process for a lot of people in differing locations.

"Good feed" is also relative to the cows you have....

To the guys with grain adapted/bred cows my "good" August made trefoil hay wouldn't be nearly enough.

But to my grass cattle that thrive on over mature reed canary grass that good trefoil hay can be too much for them.
 
If you have the right cattle you don't need to "throw a lot of hay at them" to keep them in good condition over winter. If you have cows bred and adapted to grain then they will probably need grain to maintain. If I gave my grass cattle a bunch of grain they would turn into obese whales.
Exactly.
 
"Good feed" is also relative to the cows you have....

To the guys with grain adapted/bred cows my "good" August made trefoil hay wouldn't be nearly enough.

But to my grass cattle that thrive on over mature reed canary grass that good trefoil hay can be too much for them.
I am sure it is also a lot more efficient once you get a herd to adapt to 100% grass fed. Thanks for giving me a different perspective on the matter.
 
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Golly @chevytaHOE5674 , I think I could probably make due with some of your genetics, vs. pretty much any other herds out there (just about everybody expects to be giving them grain...). Maybe @Dave's too... I like the idea of "western" genetics........ But I'll probably just keep working away at creating my own, and putting them "to the test"... No matter WHERE one would be bringing in animals from, they'll still not be on MY management plan, till they're actually ON my management plan. :unsure: ;)
 
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It's interesting to listen to Steve Campbell talking about how we can unwittingly negatively "tweak" an animals epigentics... simply by putting a calf, while out on grass pasture while nursing on its dam, on creep feed.

You bet, we'll put extra pounds on that calf, no doubt. But they'll be GRAIN gained pounds, and we'll have been setting up his gut biology, epigenetically, to be receiving GRAIN, IN ORDER TO put on and maintain those pounds. THAT then changes the fat makeup of his entire system into a much higher Omega 6 than Omega 3 ratio (if they NEVER receive grain, they'll naturally be much higher in Omega 3 fats, as are wildlife... elk, deer, bison, etc... because THEY TOO are primarily and naturally "grass-fed" critters). This then makes them "genetically" (metabolism profile via epigenetics generated by the conditions they grow up in) more dependent upon a higher energy diet in order to maintain BCS. And once you've done this to this calf, you can't change that O-6/O-3 ratio back to what it was when he was born, and before he received that creep feed, no matter how dedicated to an entirely grass-fed diet you may hold. His epigentic ability to function well or even adequately on "just grass" has been changed "forever".

My point is, this isn't JUST "PRIMARY genetics", but it is also "EPIGENTICALLY INDUCED"... meaning WE can potentially be having undesireable impacts on and change which animals can maintain BCS on grass only, and which will ultimately require grain/higher energy diets, to maintain the same level of BCS. WE CREATE the animals' maintenance requirements that we end up with, to some extent, directly by our management of them. And of course, THAT affects our bottom line.

Fits right in with @chevytaHOE5674's comment above.
 
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Yup. I understand. Like I said, it's all a matter of perspective. My whole point was, I DO wish that my herd too was made up more of the best looking 20% of them that are out there. Older cows, that consistently maintain pretty good body condition and breed back every year, on time, on an only grass/hay diet... including mostly on winter stockpile through the winter months... in Minnesota.

That's a pretty high ask, in most guys book. And my herd is NOT there.. only that top 20% are "there". The next 50% "could be doing better", but they're acceptable. You have to realize that I only started this herd from scratch in 2018, with some of my base genetics being dairy-cross cows (I started my own herd out by being paid for custom grazing... in dairy crossbred black-hided heifer calves)... and they are VERY obvious and easy to pick out, even to any untrained eye, IMO. I'm critical of my critters looks, intentionally. I don't wean my calves... the cows do that, at will. So they're milking through the winter, on grass only, while carrying a new calf, as well. With no grain. And with no barn, or feedlot windbreak... they just can get in the wake of some trees on the worst days as necessary. In Minnesota.

Could they look better if I fed them grain? You bet, no question, and I'm tempted to at times... but I'm raising "100% grass-fed beef". And if I fed them enough grain, most of them (more likely all of them) could/would be carrying a much stronger BCS... if I put them on a "high grain fattner/finishing" diet, I'm sure I could make them all "fat" even, eventually. But I don't. I make sure they have all the grass hay they'll reasonably consume (I WANT some hay "waste" to be left on the field), fed mostly daily so it's always fresh.

My intention is not to imply that your system is "poor" or "wrong" or "bad", NOT AT ALL. Your animals I'm sure are in fine shape, and you're a great manager.

My whole point then though is, if the critters in one herd (i.e.: yours) are getting corn silage with about 5.5#/day of corn grain in it as their main ration daily, plus hay as desired, plus additional grain anytime it's going to get down into single digits, in Illinois... and my critters are on the regimen that they're on........ in which herd would we be more likely to find out which animals in the herd can maintain reasonable condition, maintain fertility and breed back on time, grow a calf and deliver it without trouble, and raise it on grass pasture only through the summer, and do it all over again next year, ON MINIMAL INPUTS? If we don't "test", we'll never find out which ones can and which ones can't do it.

A few of my cows are at 10+ calves (I did buy a few older cows when I started too), the majority of the "cows" (not heifers coming in each year) are right now at 3-5 calves. And they're still staying "on time". Calving window this year is from April 5 (less than 10% in April) - June 20. My "ideal target" is May 1 - June 20. I seldom assist or watch them calve... they do it on pasture, mostly on their own. Could I have better genetics? You bet! That's what I'm working toward... as are most cattlemen. I'm doing it from within, for the most part, because I don't know anybody else that I could get genetics from that is "testing/proving" their animals in the same way. Would I generally recommend or sell some of my current genetics to someone else? Nope. For the most part, they're not great-looking animals... but they do raise some pretty nice calves that I deliver to the butcher shop. I WISH that I hadn't started out with those dairy cross critters... because those that are pure beef genetics are much better looking animals. The weird thing is, just because they LOOK better, doesn't always mean that they "get the job done" better. Those diary-crossed cows somehow seem to breed back and hang in there, in spite of having a low BCS. I moved out a number of them at last preg check that didn't breed back or that were "late calvers", and I was looking forward to moving them on down the road.

My whole point is, if we want to have animals that can do it on their own, without grain............... we have to put them in that management format... and then watch which ones can still "make it" and which ones can't. Some will be keepers. Most won't. Particularly in today's beef genetics that have been bred to perform in a feedlot.
I totally understand that. There are definitely breeds and even genetic lines with in a breed that are better suited for a grass fed environment.
The same is true for grain finishing cattle. I can make angus strs big but I better not turn them on as fast as I would Charolais or Simmentals. If I do the angus finish butter ball fat at 1,200lbs. But if I wait to turn the continentals on they’ll be 1,600 lbs and not putting fat on yet.

If I can ask ( because I’m curious) what is the breed base for your herd? The only grass fed herd I know of around here is red angus based.
 
I totally understand that. There are definitely breeds and even genetic lines with in a breed that are better suited for a grass fed environment.
The same is true for grain finishing cattle. I can make angus strs big but I better not turn them on as fast as I would Charolais or Simmentals. If I do the angus finish butter ball fat at 1,200lbs. But if I wait to turn the continentals on they’ll be 1,600 lbs and not putting fat on yet.

If I can ask ( because I’m curious) what is the breed base for your herd? The only grass fed herd I know of around here is red angus based.
Mostly black angus. Small framed. Those that have some dairy influence are a hodgepodge of dairy genetics, with a significant amount of New Zealand grass fed genetics in that originating dairy herd. But they're absolutely "dairy looking", and small framed. Not the big Holstiens we're used to here in the U.S.
 
It's interesting to listen to Steve Campbell talking about how we can unwittingly negatively "tweak" an animals epigentics... simply by putting a calf, while out on grass pasture while nursing on its dam, on creep feed.

You bet, we'll put extra pounds on that calf, no doubt. But they'll be GRAIN gained pounds, and we'll have been setting up his gut biology, epigenetically, to be receiving GRAIN, IN ORDER TO put on and maintain those pounds. THAT then changes the fat makeup of his entire system into a higher Omega 6 than Omega 3 ratio (if they NEVER receive grain, they'll naturally be higher in Omega 3 fats, as are wildlife... elk, deer, bison, etc... because THEY TOO are primarily and naturally "grass-fed" critters). This then makes them "genetically" (metabolism profile via epigenetics generated by the conditions they grow up in) more dependent upon a higher energy diet in order to maintain BCS. And once you've done this to this calf, you can't change that O-3/O-6 ratio back to what it was when he was born, and before he received that creep feed, no matter how dedicated to an entirely grass-fed diet you may hold. His epigentic ability to function well or even adequately on "just grass" has been changed "forever".

My point is, this isn't JUST "PRIMARY genetics", but it is also "EPIGENTICALLY INDUCED"... meaning WE can potentially be having undesireable impacts on and change which animals can maintain BCS on grass only, and which will ultimately require grain/higher energy diets, to maintain the same level of BCS. WE CREATE the animals' maintenance requirements that we end up with, to some extent, directly by our management of them. And of course, THAT affects our bottom line.

Fits right in with @chevytaHOE5674's comment above.
Thats what I talked about in the other thread with developing heifers. If you put heifers in feed to get them up to breeding weight are you effecting how they will be the rest of their lives? Many people believe it takes some of the hustle and natural abilities to go out and hunt up that forage to get in to breeding condition. If one animal puts on more weight than the other is that a physical trait of the body or a mentality? Its likely both but its hard to see the hustle mentality if they a strapped to a feed bunk and dont have to hustle.

Thats like raising a kid with unlimited mommy and daddy money growing up then wondering why they cant manage they own finances one day as adults. They never had to and dont know how.
 
https://www.stockmangrassfarmer.dig...azing-the-end-result-by-allen-r-williams-ph-d

* Omega-6 to Omega-3 Ratio (O6:O3). A lower O6:O3 ratio is considered highly beneficial for our daily diet. Higher omega-6s in our diet leads to significant inflammation and an array of diseases and disorders. AMA and AHA recommend an omega 6 to omega-3 ratio in our diets of 4:1 or less. The typical American diet is a ratio of 20:1 or higher.** Grassfed Beef has a ratio of under 2:1 omega-6 to omega-3 com- pared to a ratio of 11:1 to over 50:1 in feedlot beef . The problem with feedlot beef is that the consumer has no idea whether they are consuming beef that is 11:1 or over 50:1.

SUMMARY

Managing regeneratively and selecting for positive epigenetics in our livestock has profound impacts on the end-product nutritive value of the proteins we produce. This translates into improved human health and epigenetics. However, we cannot forget that livestock eating phytonutrient-rich plants also experience very positive epigenetic effects. The end results? Healthy soils, healthy plants, healthy livestock, healthy people, and healthy ecosystems. Health in all these organisms results in positive transgenerational Epigenetics.
 

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