Looking for suggestions on calves

[Warren Allison]

It looks like you did a good job buying your "cheap sale barn cows". I take it you want a commercial herd of Angus, or black cattle? If I were you, and this is just my opinion, I would buy a registered Angus or Black Simm that was homozygous for black and polled. Or, given your location, even reg Brangus. Commercial Angus, or other blacks, can be hetarazygous for black. You can have a pasture full of cows like this, and use a homo for black bull, and have an all black calf crop. Using a grade...commercial..... black bull you never know for sure if he is homozygous or not. IMO, you will be money ahead to invest in a good registered bull. Dunno how many cows you have, but you can buy a young one that will last you for several years, if you don't try to raise your own replacements. You did a good job of buying "cheap sale barn cows", and those you bought are NOT the only good ones out there at the sale barns. It is far less expensive to sell your calves and buy another cow, than it is to change registered bulls each year. And, don't know how many cows you have, but there is always the AI option. Youy can get enough semen to breed your herd for what it would cost you to keep a bull., even if you got him for next to nothing.

This board has several very reputable Angus, Brangus, and black Simm breeders on here. that I would buy a bull from sight unseen, just the pics, pedigree, and what the breeder had to say about them.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Pics of the Beefmaster and the bull calf? Side shots preferred...

Edit: I see @Mark Reynolds has left you some advice. Sorry Mark, but unless they are retaining heifers to breed I would not be concerned with low birth weights. If a cow can't deliver a hundred pound calf with a targeted weight of 90, then I wouldn't want them. These 40/60 pound calves are a terrible idea. Low birth weight bulls are only best used for first calf heifers.

It just seemed @blackladies might be new to being a producer and may have been focused on trying to produce the ideal market calf and might not have been looking at HOW TO PRODUCE that calf. Calf size isn't everything and might not be your main focus. but I've seen enough cases where calf size gets totally ignored with disastrous consequences. There are other things to look at other than birth weight, and @blackladies wasn't looking at birth weight. I was suggesting that it might be something they want to consider, along with other EPDs.

I agree, 40 - 60 lb birth weight is going too far in the other direction, but I didn't give a target weight. If I would give a 'target weight', I'd say6 80-85 lbs. That is a narrow range, but its a target.
Somewhat outside of this is fine. A target weight of 90 and being able to deliver a 100 lb calf is fine. A target of 100, but ending up with a 120# dead calf and cow is maybe within 'target range', but you have to admit is disastrous.

 

[blackladies]

It just seemed @blackladies might be new to being a producer and may have been focused on trying to produce the ideal market calf and might not have been looking at HOW TO PRODUCE that calf. Calf size isn't everything and might not be your main focus. but I've seen enough cases where calf size gets totally ignored with disastrous consequences. There are other things to look at other than birth weight, and @blackladies wasn't looking at birth weight. I was suggesting that it might be something they want to consider, along with other EPDs.

All good suggestions and the ones made can be complimentary to each other. One of the problems or good things with the bull I've been using is that he throws really small calves so no trouble calving but the calves don't have as much of a head start as some that are born with more weight. Would be a perfect heifer bull. I don't have an exact weight but most of the calves I could pick up one handed when born and I'm not that big of a guy. Would guess 55lbs. With cows instead of heifers I think I want to find something that will throw a bigger calf. Had posted on one I had to pull earlier in the year and that was my fault. A smaller frames heifer got bred way too early, she would have been 7 months when bred and that's just poor management on my part. Didn't think one would breed that early so hadn't kept her seperated.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

All good suggestions and the ones made can be complimentary to each other. One of the problems or good things with the bull I've been using is that he throws really small calves so no trouble calving but the calves don't have as much of a head start as some that are born with more weight. Would be a perfect heifer bull. I don't have an exact weight but most of the calves I could pick up one handed when born and I'm not that big of a guy. Would guess 55lbs. With cows instead of heifers I think I want to find something that will throw a bigger calf. Had posted on one I had to pull earlier in the year and that was my fault. A smaller frames heifer got bred way too early, she would have been 7 months when bred and that's just poor management on my part. Didn't think one would breed that early so hadn't kept her seperated.

Yep. 55 is probably a bit small. Funny I was saying that when you posted this. Based on your original post, it seemed like your focus was more the weaning/finish weight. My concern was you look at other factors too, birth weight being one. As you were saying, good for heifers.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

It looks like you did a good job buying your "cheap sale barn cows". I take it you want a commercial herd of Angus, or black cattle? If I were you, and this is just my opinion, I would buy a registered Angus or Black Simm that was homozygous for black and polled. Or, given your location, even reg Brangus. Commercial Angus, or other blacks, can be hetarazygous for black. You can have a pasture full of cows like this, and use a homo for black bull, and have an all black calf crop. Using a grade...commercial..... black bull you never know for sure if he is homozygous or not. IMO, you will be money ahead to invest in a good registered bull. Dunno how many cows you have, but you can buy a young one that will last you for several years, if you don't try to raise your own replacements. You did a good job of buying "cheap sale barn cows", and those you bought are NOT the only good ones out there at the sale barns. It is far less expensive to sell your calves and buy another cow, than it is to change registered bulls each year. And, don't know how many cows you have, but there is always the AI option. Youy can get enough semen to breed your herd for what it would cost you to keep a bull., even if you got him for next to nothing.

This board has several very reputable Angus, Brangus, and black Simm breeders on here. that I would buy a bull from sight unseen, just the pics, pedigree, and what the breeder had to say about them.

Fits perfectly with what I was suggesting about investing a bit more for the bull over the cows. Money invested with the bull goes a lot further than money invested in a cow or heifer, especially with a commercial herd.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Not to discriminate, but a Lowline cow is probably not the direction you want to go. Her calf is the best profiled phenotype of the calves you pictured, but how big is it compared to the others.
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulder, and are doing a good job for being new at this.
EPD's are a great TOOL, but each breed association has their own standards. Like, a +12 CE in Simmental, may be a whole lot different than a +12 CE for Angus.
You may have a good Angus breeder in your area. There are still quite a few good breeders, but --- there have been a lot of breeders looking at the PAPERS/EPD's more than looking at their cattle.
Foremost, LOOK at the feet and legs of the bull. You want a BIG ROUND foot. Not narrow pointy hooves like deer. They will be cripple in just a couple of years. You want some bone on their legs - not toothpick legs.
Obviously, I would recommend a % or PB Black Simmental. But, that's MY breed and I am very bias. But, despite my personal bias, the breed is getting to be the go to breed for the feedlot.
If you are patient, there are lots of great people to give you advice. You have already gotten quite a bit.
There are some commercial breeders that could provide you with a perfect bull for your needs. But, be sure to look at their herd/management. Do they know when it was born? Do they know what it weighed? What do THEIR calves in their herd look like? Do they finish their calves or sell? How well did they sell? Look at the dam - very important. Does she have a decent udder - no huge teats, not hanging too low for a calf to get on when born. Remember, her bag will look a LOT worse at calving time. Keep that in mind. How are HER feet/legs? Learn what POST legged cattle look like. You do NOT want that!

 

[blackladies]

Current bull (black one), red and white is the beefmaster that hopefully fills out some more or I just need to sell him he will be the bull for next year. The black beefmaster cow is his dam. Travlr was wanting some pics

 

[blackladies]

Not to discriminate, but a Lowline cow is probably not the direction you want to go. Her calf is the best profiled phenotype of the calves you pictured, but how big is it compared to the others.
Sounds like you have a good head on your shoulder, and are doing a good job for being new at this.
EPD's are a great TOOL, but each breed association has their own standards. Like, a +12 CE in Simmental, may be a whole lot different than a +12 CE for Angus.
You may have a good Angus breeder in your area. There are still quite a few good breeders, but --- there have been a lot of breeders looking at the PAPERS/EPD's more than looking at their cattle.
Foremost, LOOK at the feet and legs of the bull. You want a BIG ROUND foot. Not narrow pointy hooves like deer. They will be cripple in just a couple of years. You want some bone on their legs - not toothpick legs.
Obviously, I would recommend a % or PB Black Simmental. But, that's MY breed and I am very bias. But, despite my personal bias, the breed is getting to be the go to breed for the feedlot.
If you are patient, there are lots of great people to give you advice. You have already gotten quite a bit.
There are some commercial breeders that could provide you with a perfect bull for your needs. But, be sure to look at their herd/management. Do they know when it was born? Do they know what it weighed? What do THEIR calves in their herd look like? Do they finish their calves or sell? How well did they sell? Look at the dam - very important. Does she have a decent udder - no huge teats, not hanging too low for a calf to get on when born. Remember, her bag will look a LOT worse at calving time. Keep that in mind. How are HER feet/legs? Learn what POST legged cattle look like. You do NOT want that!

Yeah the low line thing got, me she was $550 at the sale barn in 2020 and her calves bring way more than I paid for her so can't justify getting rid of her.

 

[farmerjan]

Don't "throw away the lowline" as there are some short angus that are called lowline and really are not, so much. I bought one and we called her shorty.... have kept daughters and granddaughters out of her as she had GREAT TYPE, BODY was thick and really good legs... Bred her to whatever angus bull we put in the pasture she was moved to for summer and she would wean a calf that was 3/4 her size at 7 months... Vet made fun of her when he preg checked... but she threw nice calves and she more than paid me back for her cost... finally came up open and she had no teeth so older than we thought, when we sold her. Her salvage value was not alot more than her purchase cost since she was 800 lbs and short... but her calves have made up for it and I would buy a dozen like her, tomorrow.
I think your bull is not bad looking at all...
The thing with the "beefmaster calf" is that he will not necessarily throw the black calves if any of the cows have anything in them except "black" genetics... so you would get docked on the calves... he is a nice bull calf though. A better bull calf than his dam is a cow, in my opinion...
Is there a reason to not keep your bull for another year? Prices are pretty high on bulls; with them bringing over $1.00 lb for just cull bulls....

 

[Travlr]

Current bull (black one), red and white is the beefmaster that hopefully fills out some more or I just need to sell him he will be the bull for next year. The black beefmaster cow is his dam. Travlr was wanting some pics

I agree with @farmerjan ... Nice bulls. The Beefmaster is really nice but the color dock on his non-black calves might matter to you.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Yeah the low line thing got, me she was $550 at the sale barn in 2020 and her calves bring way more than I paid for her so can't justify getting rid of her.

It's a matter of the economics penciling out and what your preference is, and evaluating true differences between animal breeds/types vs perceived differences. Identifying perceived vs true isn't an easy thing to do, and it could be more of an individual animal difference vs line or breed differences.

 

[Brute 23]

All good suggestions and the ones made can be complimentary to each other. One of the problems or good things with the bull I've been using is that he throws really small calves so no trouble calving but the calves don't have as much of a head start as some that are born with more weight. Would be a perfect heifer bull. I don't have an exact weight but most of the calves I could pick up one handed when born and I'm not that big of a guy. Would guess 55lbs. With cows instead of heifers I think I want to find something that will throw a bigger calf. Had posted on one I had to pull earlier in the year and that was my fault. A smaller frames heifer got bred way too early, she would have been 7 months when bred and that's just poor management on my part. Didn't think one would breed that early so hadn't kept her seperated.

It happens to all of us.

 

[blackladies]

Don't "throw away the lowline" as there are some short angus that are called lowline and really are not, so much. I bought one and we called her shorty.... have kept daughters and granddaughters out of her as she had GREAT TYPE, BODY was thick and really good legs... Bred her to whatever angus bull we put in the pasture she was moved to for summer and she would wean a calf that was 3/4 her size at 7 months... Vet made fun of her when he preg checked... but she threw nice calves and she more than paid me back for her cost... finally came up open and she had no teeth so older than we thought, when we sold her. Her salvage value was not alot more than her purchase cost since she was 800 lbs and short... but her calves have made up for it and I would buy a dozen like her, tomorrow.
I think your bull is not bad looking at all...
The thing with the "beefmaster calf" is that he will not necessarily throw the black calves if any of the cows have anything in them except "black" genetics... so you would get docked on the calves... he is a nice bull calf though. A better bull calf than his dam is a cow, in my opinion...
Is there a reason to not keep your bull for another year? Prices are pretty high on bulls; with them bringing over $1.00 lb for just cull bulls....

Kept the heifers out of the black bull is the reason I am getting rid of him.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Kept the heifers out of the black bull is the reason I am getting rid of him.

You have a plan in mind and a goal you are aiming for. That is great. If you haven't written it down on paper (or typed it into a computer) you may want to do that so your goal doesn't arbitrarily change. It's ok and normal for goals to change, but don't let the goals change on their own.

 

[Brute 23]

Kept the heifers out of the black bull is the reason I am getting rid of him.

I would not hesitate to breed him back a year or two to his daughters until you are ready to move on to another bull. You said he is heifer friendly which is a plus. That way when you move on to another bull you can get a little larger bw bull and not have to worry about breeding heifers.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I would not hesitate to breed him back a year or two to his daughters until you are ready to move on to another bull. You said he is heifer friendly which is a plus. That way when you move on to another bull you can get a little larger bw bull and not have to worry about breeding heifers.

Depends on how comfortable @blackladies is with linebreeding or inbreeding. He appears to be a good bull, but his lineage is unknown. He might throw good calves, but you have no idea of his genetic background and the possibility of him harboring a lethal recessive gene is a complete crapshoot. If the intent is to create commercial cattle for market and not to build the herd from within, I personally wouldn't try this. If @blackladies is trying to bulid the herd, they should probably start with stock from a known genetic source.

Breed him to heifers, yes. To his daughters, not so much.

 

[blackladies]

I agree with @farmerjan ... Nice bulls. The Beefmaster is really nice but the color dock on his non-black calves might matter to you.

Papers for the beefmasters

 

[blackladies]

Depends on how comfortable @blackladies is with linebreeding or inbreeding. He appears to be a good bull, but his lineage is unknown. He might throw good calves, but you have no idea of his genetic background and the possibility of him harboring a lethal recessive gene is a complete crapshoot. If the intent is to create commercial cattle for market and not to build the herd from within, I personally wouldn't try this. If @blackladies is trying to bulid the herd, they should probably start with stock from a known genetic source.

Breed him to heifers, yes. To his daughters, not so much.

Can see the benefits of line breeding or inbreeding but a bit uncomfortable with it in my situation just because I have no idea what genetics are coming from the bull or the cows from the sale barn. Already had one odd deal come up where I had a calf that was 6 months old and weighed 150lbs. Was even giving it grain which the other calves weren't getting and the dang thing wouldn't grow. Should have sold it as a mini on Craigslist cause it didn't bring anything at the sale barn.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Can see the benefits of line breeding or inbreeding but a bit uncomfortable with it in my situation just because I have no idea what genetics are coming from the bull or the cows from the sale barn. Already had one odd deal come up where I had a calf that was 6 months old and weighed 150lbs. Was even giving it grain which the other calves weren't getting and the dang thing wouldn't grow. Should have sold it as a mini on Craigslist cause it didn't bring anything at the sale barn.

Very insightful of you! I'd say you are right on target with your thinking. I agree linebreeding can be a good thing, but in your case, as I just stated and you can see, it is a crapshoot, and it kinda sounds like you almost ended up with 'snake eyes'.

 

[Travlr]

Can see the benefits of line breeding or inbreeding but a bit uncomfortable with it in my situation just because I have no idea what genetics are coming from the bull or the cows from the sale barn. Already had one odd deal come up where I had a calf that was 6 months old and weighed 150lbs. Was even giving it grain which the other calves weren't getting and the dang thing wouldn't grow. Should have sold it as a mini on Craigslist cause it didn't bring anything at the sale barn.

I think @MurraysMutts might have bought that one a while back...