Chocolate Cow2 said:
The question I've asked a lot of local guys is: "You've used SAV bulls or Sitz or Stone Gate -you fill in the blank- for 10-20-30 or more years. Why haven't those bulls improved your cows enough so you can save a few calves back to be your future herd sires?"
Branded touts SAV bulls and criticizes Ebeneezer for challenging his bragging. Ebeneezer lives in the real world and has the experience to back up what he says. Branded-the saying goes- you drank the kool-aid and believe terminal can be everything for everyone. No worries. I once believed it too. I found out the hard way how wrong it could get.
I'm skeptical of the real world value of SAV cattle. Calves are kept at the bunk, forced to eat. Hooves are trimmed before the sale. No Breeding Soundness Evaluation is done on the bulls. If you pay $5,000 or $500,000 for a bull and he's sterile or has breeding problems, you get credit at next years sale BUT you have to spend more than the original sale price to get the credit. Anytime an animal is promoted exclusively by what it sold for and/or the dollar value of it's ancestors, run away. as. fast. as. you. can.
Branded's writings over the past few months have told me all I need to know. He's a multiplier who props up his herd with exceptional inputs. Any seedstock supplier, who is truly dedicated to the commercial producer, offers animals that will go into a commercial environment and make a positive impact at the least cost. A bull should never leave daughters that require excessive inputs to stay in the herd.
Somewhere along in time, the Registered Breeder has been elevated to a higher status level and the commercial producer has been downgraded. Without the commercial guy there is no need for the registered guy. So when Branded or Jeannie-Simmi Valley talks about selling a bull for $4-8,000. and how that money allows them to do more, I hope they realize that their real responsibility is "First-do no harm."
We never trim feet on our bulls. Ever! Every bull gets a BSE before leaving the ranch. Our bulls eat some exceptional hay and get a grain supplement after weaning, (not before, no creep) right up until they are ready to leave the farm. If there are ever any issues with the bull that is our responsibility, then that bull will be replaced immediately.
As for not using our own bulls. The weather has become so bad here that we put three bulls out to work a couple days ago and have forgone AI on a few groups for now.
They probably won't deliver calves that are on par with those out of SAV President, but they should be well above average.
One is an Unmistakable son we have out of a McCumber Angus (a more than average operation if you do your homework), and grandson of OCC Unmistakable. I think OCC produces cattle for real cattlemen right? The other is a son out of Crook Mt Black Cedar 3870, a bull bred by Jim Willson and Frei Angus in South Dakota. (A hidden gem of a ranch, that few folks know about)
The son we are using out of the Crook Mount Black Cedar 3870 bull and a Joy Erica dam probably has the best feet I have ever seen on an Angus bull on our operation. The sire is from a herd that has some of the VERY BEST feet in the Angus breed, AND they run a feedlot, AND they check off all the things that you commercial producers require. In fact, they have a commercial operation FYI.
I don't "prop up" anything, but yes the inputs we feed are the best. Why would any sensible person request a bull that had been developed on low quality, substandard nutrition? That's not a smart move if you want a high-performance bull, but some people have to learn the hard way, with cows that remain open. I've heard plenty of stories of bulls that didn't get the job done, and open cows are expensive for the commercial producer.
Our bulls go into service around 15-18 months, and they are NOT treated like powder puffs. Once they leave here, their best days are behind them for the most part because they are going to be used hard. In Kentucky, it is not uncommon for someone to buy a nice bull, use him, then haul him to a relatives farm, use him some more, then let 2-3 neighbors use him, before he goes to the stockyards, is purchased again, and is used until he dies in the field. Life ain't so easy for a bull in Kentucky.
Here is a sample of one of our homegrown, "over conditioned, super fat, slow, non-athletic, powderpuffs" you describe on here without ever stepping foot on our operation. This bull really isn't any of above, he's an athlete, with great feet, he will settle 25-30 as a 15 month with ease. We have him at work right now and have no doubt that he will produce some nice daughters and sons/steers. Without getting into it with you guys, I don't understand how you all have a complete grasp of our operation, and talk it down, without coming over and walking around the cattle. You are acting more like armchair quarterbacks than cattlemen.
By the way, on the recommendation of Bright Raven, here are some pics of our Stone Gate sire taking care of some ladies a few days ago. Let me know if you if you want some sons out of him. Not too many bulls in Kentucky that look as good as him, he's the real article.