Discounts vs premiums

[kenny thomas]

I believe the original (red/yellow and white fullblood) simmental cows bred to an Angus bull generally produced a gray calf with a lot of white. Due to the dilution gene. I don't think there would have been many to qualify for CAB on that first cross.

You are totally correct. They usually made very good cows though.

 

[Travlr]

It took 3 generations to make some PB Simmentals black. Just start with a commercial black cow or PB Angus.

Can you get a black animal in two generations if you breed two Sim/angus? Could it be homozygous?

 

[Travlr]

Should I get some counselling then Travlr, might help me cope with this impending disaster. I might have to look for another breed with a bigger genetic pool than Angus. Can you point me in that direction?

Ken

I'm sure you're just fine and have been very careful selecting unrelated stock from families that have never had genetic anomalies... Which of the popular breeds has the most genetic issues, though, and why? You can joke all you want but the gene pool gets more shallow every year.

 

[Rmc]

I glanced at the articles. They really didn't have any info that jumped out at me to tell me that a great trait is always linked to a mutation. There are linked traits and linked genes, but the assumption that the great comes with the bad is not clear.

You can lead a horse to water but can't force them to drink.
Didn't read the article and didn't find what you weren't looking for.what a surprise
Don't care what you believe. Continue to bury your head in the sand . Makes no difference to me.
Have no desire to argue of your definition of a word,any more then I would argue about proper pronunciation of words as we all know word meaning vary but location and trade almost as much as word pronunciation does.

 

[Warren Allison]

Can you get a black animal in two generations if you breed two Sim/angus? Could it be homozygous?

Crossing 2 heterazygous for a trait, say black, will yield 25% homozygous black, 50% hetera black, and 25% homozygous for the recessive color.

 

[rocfarm]

I was looking yesterday for what % of total US beef production was CAB and read the 7 to 8% number. The article you referenced stated that 2021 numbers were 1.2 billion pounds of CAB. Per USDA, 2021 total US beef production was a little under 28 billion pounds. If those numbers are correct, then CAB would only be 1.2/28 = 4.3%. That 28 billion is carcass weight with the retail equilavence being 19.6 billion pounds. Assuming that 1.2 billion pounds is retail, then using the two retail weight numbers, 1.2/19.6 = about 6%. I guess the true numbers are elusive.

CABcattle website does say that 5.9 million carcasses qualified in 2021 and that CAB premiums were $182 million in 2021. That would be only a $31 premium per head. Maybe I read too quickly to digest it all. USDA says 34 million head of cattle slaughtered in US in 2021. 5.9/34 = 17%. May be some black magic in some of those numbers.

USDA ERS - Statistics & Information

For the most current coverage of the livestock industry see the monthly newsletter Livestock, Dairy, and Poultry. See also current cattle and beef industry forecasts and the market context in light of BSE developments.

www.ers.usda.gov

Certified Angus Beef Premiums Record High in 2021 - CAB Cattle

The 2021 aggregate packer CAB premium total has nearly doubled in only two years, resulting in $182 million in CAB premiums.

cabcattle.com

Overseas almost all is beef sold says certified angus. They might face laxer rules on being able to label that beef as well.

But I know firsthand the beef sold overseas from the US is still quite competitive.

US Waugh is still quite behind the good Japanese stuff.

 

[Warren Allison]

You are totally correct. They usually made very good cows though.

simme said:
I believe the original (red/yellow and white fullblood) simmental cows bred to an Angus bull generally produced a gray calf with a lot of white. Due to the dilution gene. I don't think there would have been many to qualify for CAB on that first cross.

The ones I remember from the 70's were a deep red & white. like Hereford only a tad darker, and with colored hair around the eyes. They always had black baldy calves, unless someone had a grade Angus bull that was heterazygous. Those calves would look like a deeper red rwf. There were some cattle that looked just like them only tan/yellow & white. These were a very popular Simm/Char cross. Looked just like a sImm, only tan-ish & white rather than red & white My brother showed cattle in the fairs from his freshman through Junior years 74-76. They just had started commercial classes for heifers and steers. He showed those Simm x Charr for 3 years, and so did his best friend. My granddaddy bought them from the boys each year, so ended up with 6. I think every one of them always had black baldies except for this one that was dark grey & white. Before this conversation started I was just about to ask if anyone knew if the Simms carried a gene that negated the Char dilute gene, because I remembered those black baldy calves from the Char x Simms. But, that was only 6 cows. If we had 100 of them, the other 94 would probably have all had grey & white calves

 

[greybeard]

of course with Charolais it takes longer than one or two generations.

Here, those yellows and smokies sell dang good.

True story.
Around 2013,I went down to Liberty Texas for that year's South East Texas Beef Symposium. Between the presentations and talks, we all took a break and most of us walked outside where the dealership hardware was and a few vendor booths. There was a busload of bored looking FFA/4H kids wandering around from one of the county ag class and they came up just as I approached a guy behind the counter for Brangus cattle. He has some give away stickers and some pamphlets there and as the kids came up,I was hoping to get them engaged a bit so I asked him "What will a Brangus bull do on Char cows and their calves?"
He sez (exclaimed) "Why, he'll turn 'em black!"
I waited for him to go further, maybe milking ability, easy calving, drought resistance but no, all he had to say was "You'll get black calves!"

That's the day I came to understand just how deep the black hide fever had progressed.
Not much has changed either. It's still all about being a bovine one color Sherwin Williams salesman for many.

(I LIKE Brangus cattle and always have, tho I prefer red brangus and that was what I was really considering trying out back then)

 

[rocfarm]

Here, those yellows and smokies sell dang good.

True story.
Around 2013,I went down to Liberty Texas for that year's South East Texas Beef Symposium. Between the presentations and talks, we all took a break and most of us walked outside where the dealership hardware was and a few vendor booths. There was a busload of bored looking FFA/4H kids wandering around from one of the county ag class and they came up just as I approached a guy behind the counter for Brangus cattle. He has some give away stickers and some pamphlets there and as the kids came up,I was hoping to get them engaged a bit so I asked him "What will a Brangus bull do on Char cows and their calves?"
He sez (exclaimed) "Why, he'll turn 'em black!"
I waited for him to go further, maybe milking ability, easy calving, drought resistance but no, all he had to say was "You'll get black calves!"

That's the day I came to understand just how deep the black hide fever had progressed.
Not much has changed either. It's still all about being a bovine one color Sherwin Williams salesman for many.

(I LIKE Brangus cattle and always have, tho I prefer red brangus and that was what I was really considering trying out back then)

Well, I like red, my herd is mostly red and I ended up (by accident) with a red bull for my first bull, but this thread seems to have convinced me I would be better off getting a black bull in the future.

As frustrated/angry as many seem about it, it seems there's simply no choice if the smaller producer doesn't want to, at the very least, run a very high risk of leaving money on the table when marketing calves through regularly available channels.

 

[wbvs58]

I'm sure you're just fine and have been very careful selecting unrelated stock from families that have never had genetic anomalies... Which of the popular breeds has the most genetic issues, though, and why? You can joke all you want but the gene pool gets more shallow every year.

I assume you are talking about Angus but I don't know where you get the idea that the genetic pool is getting shallower every year, certainly not my experience.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Can you get a black animal in two generations if you breed two Sim/angus? Could it be homozygous?

You can get a hetero black calf in 1 generation if using 1 black and 1 red animal. And yes, the 2nd generation can easily be homo black. My comment above about "taking 3 generations" was referring to making a black PUREBRED Simmental from a commercial or reg other breed/color cow.
If you are talking modern Simmental genetics, a huge number of PB Simmental are Homo Black.

@simme. You are correct, if the Simmentals being used were from the French or Switzerland strains.

@Warren Allison. You are also correct if they were using Simmental strains from Germany or Australia. These did not carry the diluter gene.

 

[Ebenezer]

You can lead a horse to water but can't force them to drink.
Didn't read the article and didn't find what you weren't looking for.what a surprise
Don't care what you believe. Continue to bury your head in the sand . Makes no difference to me.
Have no desire to argue of your definition of a word,any more then I would argue about proper pronunciation of words as we all know word meaning vary but location and trade almost as much as word pronunciation does.

I think the word you want to share with us in your personal theory of genetic defects is outlier. It relates to your theory of an animal with an extreme difference from the mean of the test population. In a bell curve, the outliers are found in the extreme narrow margins within the standard deviations, either high or low. People do judge you by the words you use. You're welcome.

 

[Travlr]

I assume you are talking about Angus but I don't know where you get the idea that the genetic pool is getting shallower every year, certainly not my experience.

Ken

Available choices have increased as more bulls are being milked for semen... but the bulls are more related genetically every year. The top ten bulls sire a significant portion of the registered and commercial herd sires through AI, from cows that are related to them, and of home raised bulls they are mostly descended from AI bulls only one generation removed.

I'd bet that 99% of black angus cattle are related within four generations.

And the same thing is being done with all breeds. All purebred cattle are getting less genetically diverse. The only reason I'm using black angus as an example is because they have the biggest footprint and the greatest influence... even across breeds as people succumb to black hide marketing.

 

[Travlr]

You can get a hetero black calf in 1 generation if using 1 black and 1 red animal. And yes, the 2nd generation can easily be homo black. My comment above about "taking 3 generations" was referring to making a black PUREBRED Simmental from a commercial or reg other breed/color cow.

I knew that... but just thought it bears clarifying after you expressed a "3 generations" time frame. Of course you're also using the PB term which may also need clarifying. The PB term used for non-black cattle breeds bred to be black using angus just mystifies me. I understand that PB is now used differently than in the past as per agreement within the breed.

 

[cattleman99]

You can get a hetero black calf in 1 generation if using 1 black and 1 red animal. And yes, the 2nd generation can easily be homo black. My comment above about "taking 3 generations" was referring to making a black PUREBRED Simmental from a commercial or reg other breed/color cow.
If you are talking modern Simmental genetics, a huge number of PB Simmental are Homo Black.

@simme. You are correct, if the Simmentals being used were from the French or Switzerland strains.

@Warren Allison. You are also correct if they were using Simmental strains from Germany or Australia. These did not carry the diluter gene.

the diluter gene is present in the German cattle as well. Especially some of the old genetics. It's being bred out now as it's easy to test but if you check the bull sale catalogs that will start coming out shortly you will see the majority are non diluter but a few will carry the gene. Most Fullblood breeders in Canada test for it now.

 

[Rmc]

I think the word you want to share with us in your personal theory of genetic defects is outlier. It relates to your theory of an animal with an extreme difference from the mean of the test population. In a bell curve, the outliers are found in the extreme narrow margins within the standard deviations, either high or low. People do judge you by the words you use. You're welcome.

Scientific principles don't change just because you don't like the person or the exact words used in your geographic region. So play English teacher all you want it doesn't change the science. Even if you continue to ignore it by burrowing you head in the ground .

Am willing to have a debate about genetics and inheritance any time and place.
Including epigenetics , the environmental trigger of the change of the expression of a gene. Or the fact that "identical twins" become less and less similar genetically as they age.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

the diluter gene is present in the German cattle as well. Especially some of the old genetics. It's being bred out now as it's easy to test but if you check the bull sale catalogs that will start coming out shortly you will see the majority are non diluter but a few will carry the gene. Most Fullblood breeders in Canada test for it now.

Quite possibly in today's genetics, but the original Fleckvieh (German and Austrian Simmental) in the 70s were known for their non diluter.
The thing with RED, you cannot tell for sure if they are carrying the diluter gene. It is not dominant like it is with black.
Like you said, now it's a simple test.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I knew that... but just thought it bears clarifying after you expressed a "3 generations" time frame. Of course you're also using the PB term which may also need clarifying. The PB term used for non-black cattle breeds bred to be black using angus just mystifies me. I understand that PB is now used differently than in the past as per agreement within the breed.

No, PUREBRED has been used since the arrival of FULLBLOOD semen back 1968. We, Simmental, still have Fullblood herds in USA. Most being the Fleckvieh strain. In order to be designated as fullblood, they have to go back 5 generations of fullblood. Because, people imported "fullbloods" from Europe, but they actually were % crossbreed cattle upgraded.
Purebred does not indicate any color. They can be red, black, grey or polka dotted...no color restrictions. Strictly a genetic upgrading program.

 

[Ebenezer]

Scientific principles don't change just because you don't like the person or the exact words used in your geographic region. So play English teacher all you want it doesn't change the science. Even if you continue to ignore it by burrowing you head in the ground .

Am willing to have a debate about genetics and inheritance any time and place.
Including epigenetics , the environmental trigger of the change of the expression of a gene. Or the fact that "identical twins" become less and less similar genetically as they age.

I have heard enough if the majority of the words that you use have been used in the correct context and as used widely in the industry. The inability to clearly discuss based on a stubbornness to learn correct terms and definitions is a brick wall. The articles that you shared offered no connected support to your personal theory. I do not have time to waste in arguments. I wish you the best.

 

[Travlr]

No, PUREBRED has been used since the arrival of FULLBLOOD semen back 1968. We, Simmental, still have Fullblood herds in USA. Most being the Fleckvieh strain. In order to be designated as fullblood, they have to go back 5 generations of fullblood. Because, people imported "fullbloods" from Europe, but they actually were % crossbreed cattle upgraded.
Purebred does not indicate any color. They can be red, black, grey or polka dotted...no color restrictions. Strictly a genetic upgrading program.

I don't see how your wonderful explanation conflicts in any way with what I said, so puzzled by the, "No"... but I'll take the no under advisement and consider how it should be applied.