Discounts vs premiums

[Travlr]

There is a big name Angus breeder near here. There is also a big name Hereford breeder. They actually live within a couple miles of each other. Their spring bull sale happen in the same week. The last couple years I see from their sales reports that the Hereford bulls are averaging about
$1,000 a head more. People are remembering what those Angus bulls did when used on the purebred Hereford cow herds. Hybrid vigor works both ways.
Back in the 70's I cowboyed for a rancher who ran Black Angus cows. In those days everyone had Hereford cattle. I remember him saying that the buyers docked black cattle anyway that they could. Old Charlie was just ahead of his time.

My dad had Herefords in northern California, just like everyone else in the early '50s. A neighbor bought an Angus bull and for some reason asked my father to board it for awhile. I'd just got my first puppy, a little Aussie... and I went with the pup to see the big, black bull in the barn. The bull was eating from the bunk and my 8 week old (?) pup barked... and the bull wheeled around and thundered from the barn and right through the corral fence. He ended up in our orchard. My dad wouldn't allow me to help get the bull in. I couldn't figure out why, and my three year old self really wanted to help.

 

[Rmc]

So if ya understand dat en let's mosey on to your next false claim bout me You claim

that totally ignorant post above where you said DNA could NOT be used to determine breed... that ALL cattle DNA was exactly a like!!!

Here is what i actually dun did said a bit while ago

This will never ever happen.
There is zero definite genetic difference to identify angus from many other breeds.
Would be far to embarrassing for angus to explain why some of the top registered lines won't test positive on dna test for "angus"

So go to bed and wait for the mind altering substances you are on to dissipate. Then come back and read this when you are thinking more clearly.
So let me explain what I ment a little differently. Do to all the mixing of various breeds. It will never happen for a number of reasons.
It will be nearly impossible to find a a dna
profile or gene. That can be identified as belonging exclusively and only to angus cattle and no where else. There is no way to find a "angus" only gene .
Even if one was theoretically one was found . The testing company as well as any association would not be willing to accept the liability for such a test .
Angus influenced dna may could be possible. But a dna test that identifies angus and excludes all other breeds guaranteed . It will never happen.
Big difference saying that there will never be a dna test to identify a single bred at the exclusion of all other breeds will never happen. And saying all cattle dna was exactly alike.
Understand now big boy.

 

[Rmc]

Damn, Scooter. we weren't even TALKING about the RRA rules. We were talking about the article YOU posted saying that the USDA has said CAB and otyhers have cerify Red Angus in their respective programs.

Please review post #83 and post #87
Big boy

 

[rocfarm]

Warren Allison
I wil splan it to you berry slowly so maybe You can understand. Each post has the persons name that posted . When you quote it the very first line of the quote says the one people who writ it by putting their name at the very top .
So you need to look at the very top line in the quote at the top of this here post. It reeds "rocfarm:"
So that means "rocfarm" posted it .
My username is "RMC"
That means that I was not the one who posted . Sum one did post it but it weren't me .
So do you understand now big boy?
I didn't post it genius

Apologies to you, RMC.

It was my attempt at humor. I figured as much as others had seen that I have thoroughly researched cattle and also the fact that my other posts are actually quite within the conventional opinions, everyone would get that.

I'll remember not to joke with folks again.

Didn't mean for you to catch any flack.

 

[wbvs58]

Meanwhile, I'll just go about breeding my low input Angus cattle that produce a calf every 12 months that grows like crazy that the buyers here seem to like and give me a premium on top for it. Sounds boring doesn't it? So we start all over again, ho hum.
My commiserations to the rest of you with your multi coloured cattle trying to work out how us Angus breeders got it all wrong.

Ken

 

[Ebenezer]

RMC: "The basic science of genetics says that almost always when a genetic mutation occurs it is not a single gene mutation,but is a multiple gene mutation that contains both highly desirable mutations as well as undesirable lethal /semi lethal gene mutations"

Please show us the scientific documentation on this assumption. I have never heard that thought nor read it. At conception, mere "noise" can cause an incomplete transmission of a gene and create a mutation or a defect. It is a single gene issue. Your dairy bull: maybe folks were just selecting a superior animal and it had a defect. But the pairing story needs to be proven if you support it. Thanks.

A curvebender is merely a short gestation bull with plenty of growth. It has nothing to do with a genetic fault. I do not prefer them because it can warp their age of maturity, too. Thus some have a lot of late mature growth. We had some 1700 and 1800 pound cows here from an early one. They were fertile and raised a nice calf but way too big.

"The last couple years I see from their sales reports that the Hereford bulls are averaging about
$1,000 a head more. People are remembering what those Angus bulls did when used on the purebred Hereford cow herds. Hybrid vigor works both ways."

It does, but for baldie replacement females, the ANXHE was a preferred cross more than the HEXAN in an older research paper I read years ago. They are the same, but different. But the PHXAN and HHXAN that we raised at one time were good cattle and sold well.

 

[rocfarm]

RMC: "The basic science of genetics says that almost always when a genetic mutation occurs it is not a single gene mutation,but is a multiple gene mutation that contains both highly desirable mutations as well as undesirable lethal /semi lethal gene mutations"

Please show us the scientific documentation on this assumption. I have never heard that thought nor read it. At conception, mere "noise" can cause an incomplete transmission of a gene and create a mutation or a defect. It is a single gene issue. Your dairy bull: maybe folks were just selecting a superior animal and it had a defect. But the pairing story needs to be proven if you support it. Thanks.

A curvebender is merely a short gestation bull with plenty of growth. It has nothing to do with a genetic fault. I do not prefer them because it can warp their age of maturity, too. Thus some have a lot of late mature growth. We had some 1700 and 1800 pound cows here from an early one. They were fertile and raised a nice calf but way too big.

"The last couple years I see from their sales reports that the Hereford bulls are averaging about
$1,000 a head more. People are remembering what those Angus bulls did when used on the purebred Hereford cow herds. Hybrid vigor works both ways."

It does, but for baldie replacement females, the ANXHE was a preferred cross more than the HEXAN in an older research paper I read years ago. They are the same, but different. But the PHXAN and HHXAN that we raised at one time were good cattle and sold well.

I thought it was Angus bulls x Hereford cows because herford cows are lower maintenance and cheaper per head, not genetic differences. Are you sure a Hereford bull on an angus cow is really genetically different from the opposite?

At the auctions in central Texas, Hereford kill cows and heifers almost always bring lower prices. Also, some say herefords are easier keepers. Financially, if you want to sell baldies, cheap cows with a good bull will make you more money than expensive cows with a cheaper or like-priced bull…

 

[Travlr]

Meanwhile, I'll just go about breeding my low input Angus cattle that produce a calf every 12 months that grows like crazy that the buyers here seem to like and give me a premium on top for it. Sounds boring doesn't it? So we start all over again, ho hum.
My commiserations to the rest of you with your multi coloured cattle trying to work out how us Angus breeders got it all wrong.

Ken

You didn't get it all wrong. You are just as much a victim of the system as anyone else. Your black cattle are likely to be related to all other black cattle and cruising toward some kind of eventual brick wall. The experts selling CAB will deny it of course, and are working diligently to stay on top of the genetic issues so they don't hit the fan, and maybe they will do well and maybe they won't. Still much easier and safer to have a diverse gene pool... but they are selling high priced bulls so by their standards they are working the system to their advantage. In the meantime your neighbors are putting the same effort and financial inputs into their cattle, producing just as good a product, and if they are not black they are taking a hit at the sale barn.

It's the marketing scheme (scam) that's the problem, not those that take advantage of it.

 

[simme]

I believe that 7 to 8% of the cattle slaughtered in the US end up getting CAB certification. I think I read that the average CAB premium is about $150 per head. Remember that the CAB designation can only come at slaughter since the carcass has to be evaluated. With stockers and feeders, buyers can speculate that they could end up with CAB certification. But the final test is on a dead animal. Hard to believe that a program that represents 8% of the animals in the US could have enough power to ruin beef production and genetics in the America's. Well, CAB and AI. And now maybe claims that it has done the same for Australia. Just to be clear, that is sarcasm on my part. Angus are a small percentage of the worldwide cattle population. Largest breed by numbers in the world - Zebu breeds. Second largest numbers - simmental. Countries with most cattle - India, Brazil, China, USA, EU are the top five in order.

 

[Ky hills]

Meanwhile, I'll just go about breeding my low input Angus cattle that produce a calf every 12 months that grows like crazy that the buyers here seem to like and give me a premium on top for it. Sounds boring doesn't it? So we start all over again, ho hum.
My commiserations to the rest of you with your multi coloured cattle trying to work out how us Angus breeders got it all wrong.

Ken

Ken, as the one who started this thread, I'll take a moment to clear up some things. There are absolutely a lot of folks like you that have and raise Angus cattle and do well with them. I've always said that I'd just as soon have a good Angus as anything. Everybody's experience is somewhat different, I tried to start up a small registered herd of Angus using the current cattle at the time and wasn't pleased with the overall results. We've used registered Angus bulls for 20 years, so I don't have hatred toward them. I've had plenty of issues with Charolais, Herefords, etc, so definitely no perfect breed. Which brings me to why I made the post, there is so much promotional propaganda about Angus here, that pretty much makes them out to be not only perfect but the only breed worth having and that gets old quick. I've got several friends that are Angus breeders, so certainly no animosity towards them or others. It's the way the marketing turned out and in the long run damaged quality by the loss of good genetics from other breeds, and lost people a lot of money in the process of getting where we are today.
I was actually told a few years ago by a large Angus breeder that he was very frustrated with the issues that were in the breed, same issues that I was seeing in mine. Have also heard others say similar things.
I see your cattle pictures and videos on here, and you have a fine herd of cattle, that anyone would be proud of, so no disrespect meant towards you or any other Angus breeders

 

[Rmc]

RMC: "The basic science of genetics says that almost always when a genetic mutation occurs it is not a single gene mutation,but is a multiple gene mutation that contains both highly desirable mutations as well as undesirable lethal /semi lethal gene mutations"

Please show us the scientific documentation on this assumption. I have never heard that thought nor read it. At conception, mere "noise" can cause an incomplete transmission of a gene and create a mutation or a defect. It is a single gene issue. Your dairy bull: maybe folks were just selecting a superior animal and it had a defect. But the pairing story needs to be proven if you support it. Thanks.

A curvebender is merely a short gestation bull with plenty of growth.

Here are a couple of article on non independent assortment of genes. If you search terms such as "linked genes" " non independent assortment of genes" ect you will find thousands of similar articles and research
Here is on on the basics

Genetic Linkage

learn.genetics.utah.edu

And a more in-depth article

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.0607280104

My definition of "curve benders" is different than yours.
I am referring to an animal that is outside the genetic norm of the breed or species a "game changer"
Such as the Holstein bull I referred to earlier. He was born back in the early 1970s . The ability for his offspring wasn't an accumulation of already present genes it was a mutation.
It wasn't a gradual change it was a huge and dramatic increase in a desired trait. Many ways to theorize and come to the conclusion it was a mutation. The dramatic change didn't disappear over time ect.
When you select for such traits you get the good with the bad , when you select a specific genetic trait you are also selecting the other genes that are linked to it.

 

[greybeard]

Unless they have ag experience, the average consumer in this country knows two breeds of cattle: Angus and Wagyu.

In my region, that's not true. Most shoppers standing in front of the meat case, if you said 'Wagyu" they would have a puzzled look on their face and say "Huh?"
The most recognizable breeds in America by the average Joe are still Hereford, Angus and Holstein with Brahman a close tie for 3rd..

 

[Rmc]

Apologies to you, RMC.

It was my attempt at humor. I figured as much as others had seen that I have thoroughly researched cattle and also the fact that my other posts are actually quite within the conventional opinions, everyone would get that.

I'll remember not to joke with folks again.

Didn't mean for you to catch any flack

No need to apologize
Everyone knew it was a joke.
Some just get so bent out of shape and so focused on playing "gotcha" they make a fool of themselves.
Some don't like to think outside the box or have their ideas questioned. I like to think out side the norm and question everything it is how I learn and change .
So it is not a big deal some people choose to attack the person rather then take a look at their preconceived opinions. It life.

 

[Travlr]

Ken, as the one who started this thread, I'll take a moment to clear up some things. There are absolutely a lot of folks like you that have and raise Angus cattle and do well with them. I've always said that I'd just as soon have a good Angus as anything. Everybody's experience is somewhat different, I tried to start up a small registered herd of Angus using the current cattle at the time and wasn't pleased with the overall results. We've used registered Angus bulls for 20 years, so I don't have hatred toward them. I've had plenty of issues with Charolais, Herefords, etc, so definitely no perfect breed. Which brings me to why I made the post, there is so much promotional propaganda about Angus here, that pretty much makes them out to be not only perfect but the only breed worth having and that gets old quick. I've got several friends that are Angus breeders, so certainly no animosity towards them or others. It's the way the marketing turned out and in the long run damaged quality by the loss of good genetics from other breeds, and lost people a lot of money in the process of getting where we are today.
I was actually told a few years ago by a large Angus breeder that he was very frustrated with the issues that were in the breed, same issues that I was seeing in mine. Have also heard others say similar things.
I see your cattle pictures and videos on here, and you have a fine herd of cattle, that anyone would be proud of, so no disrespect meant towards you or any other Angus breeders

I'll agree with this completely. Angus are as good (or not) as any breed. I have no issues with great cattle getting a "premium" price as long as the competition is between quality of beef animals and not color of their hair.

The entire issue is in the marketing that excludes competitive breeds based on nothing more than color.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Buyers will discount on ANYTHING they CAN. That's the business. Right now it's big on color. If you choose to breed to other than black, it is up to you to find your own market that will pay for the quality of what you are producing.
I breed red and black. But, I have my own direct market for my steers. They are buying on quality - not color. But, that is MY responsibility to market MY QUALITY cattle.
"IF" you are raising a quality product, it is up to you to find a market willing to pay for the quality.
You are not locked into Angus - it can be black Simmental, Limousin, etc.

 

[Dave]

As most of you know I buy old broken mouth cows (one and done) at the sale. Color is not considered when I am buying. You can see from this picture that they are all sorts of colors. More colored cows than black. The calves were the same way. Certainly some black calves and baldies. But more reds and greys than blacks. When they sold the steers were sorted into 3 groups by weight with multiple colors in each group. Two of those bunches topped the sale that day. The third bunch was only a couple pennies off the top selling calves that day. The only steer to get sorted off was a Charolais calf who was a lot bigger than any of the other calves. He didn't bring as much per pound but brought more total dollars to me.

 

[Ky hills]

I believe that 7 to 8% of the cattle slaughtered in the US end up getting CAB certification. I think I read that the average CAB premium is about $150 per head. Remember that the CAB designation can only come at slaughter since the carcass has to be evaluated. With stockers and feeders, buyers can speculate that they could end up with CAB certification. But the final test is on a dead animal. Hard to believe that a program that represents 8% of the animals in the US could have enough power to ruin beef production and genetics in the America's. Well, CAB and AI. And now maybe claims that it has done the same for Australia. Just to be clear, that is sarcasm on my part. Angus are a small percentage of the worldwide cattle population. Largest breed by numbers in the world - Zebu breeds. Second largest numbers - simmental. Countries with most cattle - India, Brazil, China, USA, EU are the top five in order.

I believe those figures are a bit low per another article. No doubt black hided calves make up a vast majority of the market share of US cattle and there are numerous branded products besides CAB, that utilizes "Angus".

Better Beef, Better Demand as Certified Angus Beef Sets Records in 2021 - ProAg

Certified Angus Beef (CAB) announced their second highest sales year on record, totaling 1.215 billion pounds.

www.proag.com

 

[greybeard]

ho was a lot bigger than any of the other calves. He didn't bring as much per pound but brought more total dollars to me.

And this is an aspect that lots of people miss. If you can get one, of any color, to put on more weight in the same timeframe, it's just $$$ in the bank. I've been reading your posts for several years now Dave and you're definitely doing some things right. It's maybe not for everybody but it's working for you!!

 

[Ky hills]

Everybody that knows me, knows that I have been involved with and passionate about raising cattle since I was very young. I've always believed that there is good and bad associated with every breed, and that there is some useful traits within each breed. The thing with the black hide change kinda came to our area seemed like over night. I was working with a herd of registered Charolais, mainly comprised of females and herd bulls bought from longtime area breeders, and was utilizing AI, mainly from a nationally known ranch that was the Charolais equivalent to SAV at the time.
We were coming off of the debacle of the frame race, and the buzzword of the day was moderate. We as breeders were diligently trying to correct the problems and move forward. It just happened so fast, i remember talking with a fellow breeder that everything changed, demand dropped over night seemed like.
Pretty disheartening when you have a field of mostly AI sired bulls, arguably the best I had raised and they were worth less than black commercial steers.
Back in the early nineties semen was any where from $35 to $50 a straw and signing fee of $35 on most of them.
No market for them at all, and previously had always sold out of bulls fairly early
It was more than a fad it was industry changing, No financially feasible way for me to stay that course.
Over the next few years, we watched several large local Hereford, Santa Gertrudis, Charolais herds fold up,
Most just went commercial Angus, The Simmental breeders went from having red and white spotted cattle to black.
Limousins and the new comer at the time to our area Gelbvieh went black.
Years worth of breeding and work from many folks down the drain. Only to start over with mostly lesser quality animals that were the desired color.
Those were largely folks who had been making breeding decisions based on visual appraisal and experience compiled over decades. Now we have experts that make breeding decisions based on an ever changing numbers scheme, and yes by using the AI bull with the best numbers from a hand lull of breeders and all we really know about the bull is a couple sentences of how great he is below a possibly photoshopped image. And if that's not enough most of those bulls will be obsolete by the time their calves are on the ground. I think we were headed that direction with AI even without the black cattle stuff, but it kind of intertwined with the growing popularity of Angus.
There have been some inroads back into the bull market by other breeds. Simmentals are hot in this area, some Black Gelbvieh and balancers, and a few black Limousins. Herefords could have been in a good position, but seems like the mainstream movers and shakers are more focused on raising toads for the show ring than they are production animals.
I've always believed that if you pay attention to birthweights and calving ease, there's no better cross for anything than a Charolais. Sadly a lot of these breeds have lost some of the benefits that brought them to the table in the first place too just like Angus. It's across the board issues with all of them some are stronger than others in some areas and I think we tend to forget that there really isn't an actual curve bender do it all individual or breed even though that was a popular word for a long time.

 

[greybeard]

I've always believed that if you pay attention to birthweights and calving ease, there's no better cross for anything than a Charolais.

and you're not wrong there, but black hide fever doesn't see that.