How Long

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Bright Raven
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Re: How Long

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:47 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:

Corporations don't pay taxes they collect them from us.
Any tax put on a corporation is passed on to the consumer, that is how we got on this road to socialism.


If I am allowed to disagree OH GREAT ONE.

Socialism began with the post-depression Roosevelt policies. Everyone looked to the federal government for a solution. As you have mentioned yourself, programs like CCC put the government in charge of providing employment. Then came Social Securtiy with the concept that Uncle Sam could take care of us like one big family.

The truth is, we are all on the government TEAT. Who does not use federal highways? Who doesn't participate in Social Security? Who doesn't get Medicare, etc.



Got it wrong again the socialism train left the station under Woodrow Wilson.
FDR was just following along.


He was certainly a progressive. I will step back and ask you to identify a key policy he is responsible for that promoted socialism. I did that for Roosevelt. Please support your assertion that Wilson got the socialist train moving!
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Re: How Long

Postby Caustic Burno » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:46 pm

Try League of Nations start of the one world order
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Re: How Long

Postby TexasBred » Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:51 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:Try League of Nations start of the one world order

The US was never a member of the League of Nations.
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Re: How Long

Postby Caustic Burno » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:10 pm

TexasBred wrote:
Caustic Burno wrote:Try League of Nations start of the one world order

The US was never a member of the League of Nations.

Didn't say they were Wilsons 14 point plan founded it and it was his vision.
Another do nothing noble prize winning president
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Re: How Long

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:57 pm

Caustic Burno wrote:Try League of Nations start of the one world order


IMO as humble as it is in the shadow of your greatness, Wilson's advocacy for the League of Nation does not rise to the level of policy that FDR actually implemented in lieu of only advocating. Furthermore, the mission of the League of Nations was not considered "socialism" by most recognized historians.

Caustic, most political scientist routinely point to the FDR era as the point in US history when we headed down the road to socialism. Think about the programs FDR spawned in response to the economic devastation of the Great Depression. The government implemented "make work programs". Then in 1935, FDR presided over the passage of SS:

An act to provide for the general welfare by establishing a system of Federal old-age benefits, ....

If that ain't socialism, there is no such animal...
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Re: How Long

Postby zirlottkim » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:11 pm

"The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield." Thomas Jefferson. He preach nullification of Federal overreach by States. Stated are bought off with the threat of with holding Federal funds. Socialist America started long before FDR or Wilson. They were both very important in the progressive movement though. Wilson helped start the Federal Reserve Bank, making FDR's NEW DEAL possible. Compromising with the socialist agenda basically means you are accepting a little bit of socialism. Over time and generations of compromising, socialism will lead to communism. Federal Reserve makes this possible by basically stealing the value of your money over time by creating or printing dollars making your investments and dollars worth less. Centralizing wealth as Ron put it. But .....what do I know.
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Re: How Long

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:25 pm

zirlottkim wrote:"The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield." Thomas Jefferson. He preach nullification of Federal overreach by States. Stated are bought off with the threat of with holding Federal funds. Socialist America started long before FDR or Wilson. They were both very important in the progressive movement though. Wilson helped start the Federal Reserve Bank, making FDR's NEW DEAL possible. Compromising with the socialist agenda basically means you are accepting a little bit of socialism. Over time and generations of compromising, socialism will lead to communism. Federal Reserve makes this possible by basically stealing the value of your money over time by creating or printing dollars making your investments and dollars worth less. Centralizing wealth as Ron put it. But .....what do I know.


You are correct. There was a thread of socialism in the original fabric. Historians often point to the FDR years as the threshold.

It is worth remembering that despite the touch of socialism here and there, we are still a capitalist state.
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Re: How Long

Postby zirlottkim » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:44 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
zirlottkim wrote:"The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield." Thomas Jefferson. He preach nullification of Federal overreach by States. Stated are bought off with the threat of with holding Federal funds. Socialist America started long before FDR or Wilson. They were both very important in the progressive movement though. Wilson helped start the Federal Reserve Bank, making FDR's NEW DEAL possible. Compromising with the socialist agenda basically means you are accepting a little bit of socialism. Over time and generations of compromising, socialism will lead to communism. Federal Reserve makes this possible by basically stealing the value of your money over time by creating or printing dollars making your investments and dollars worth less. Centralizing wealth as Ron put it. But .....what do I know.


You are correct. There was a thread of socialism in the original fabric. Historians often point to the FDR years as the threshold.

It is worth remembering that despite the touch of socialism here and there, we are still a capitalist state.

I would argue its more than a touch. Who dictates what capital(currency) is worth? Not the free market for sure.
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Re: How Long

Postby Bright Raven » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:49 pm

zirlottkim wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
zirlottkim wrote:"The natural progress of things is for the government to gain ground and for liberty to yield." Thomas Jefferson. He preach nullification of Federal overreach by States. Stated are bought off with the threat of with holding Federal funds. Socialist America started long before FDR or Wilson. They were both very important in the progressive movement though. Wilson helped start the Federal Reserve Bank, making FDR's NEW DEAL possible. Compromising with the socialist agenda basically means you are accepting a little bit of socialism. Over time and generations of compromising, socialism will lead to communism. Federal Reserve makes this possible by basically stealing the value of your money over time by creating or printing dollars making your investments and dollars worth less. Centralizing wealth as Ron put it. But .....what do I know.


You are correct. There was a thread of socialism in the original fabric. Historians often point to the FDR years as the threshold.

It is worth remembering that despite the touch of socialism here and there, we are still a capitalist state.

I would argue its more than a touch. Who dictates what capital(currency) is worth? Not the free market for sure.


Yes. The Federal Reserve is an instrument of politics. Furthermore, inflation and the cost of living statistics are manipulated.
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Re: How Long

Postby Son of Butch » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:41 pm

Bright Raven wrote:
zirlottkim wrote:
Bright Raven wrote:
Historians often point to the FDR years as the threshold.

It is worth remembering that despite the touch of socialism here and there, we are still a capitalist state.

I would argue its more than a touch. Who dictates what capital (currency) is worth? Not the free market for sure.


Yes. The Federal Reserve is an instrument of politics.

OR politicians are instruments of The Federal Reserve. (Making them all tools :) )

Goes back long before before FDR or Wilson... try Napoleon, actually even much farther back to be correct.
All just part of the 4 hidden dynasties of the world. 1. Political 2. Financial 3. Education 4. Religion (organized)

While I am far from ready to jump on any "Sky is Falling" bandwagon, it is all going to come to a head eventually.
The older I get, the more I realize how short a decade or even a century really is.
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Re: How Long

Postby Nesikep » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:57 pm

I think it got into full swing when Nixon eliminated the gold standard, making it possible to endlessly print money for social programs, the so called "defense" department, etc.
Going back to another thread that says land should double in value every 10 years.. that's a far cry from the claimed inflation rate.

So tell me if everyone really has the opportunity to get rich... How many people who borrowed money in 1980 lost everything when there were 20+% interest rates? How many people lost everything in the dotcom crash? How many people lost everything in the 2008 crash? Who got bailed out? How is it working out for people who went to school for a decade, even in a reasonable field that isn't a liberal arts degree.. for a lot of them it isn't.

China isn't to blame (at least not entirely) for the manufacturing sector in the US dying out... The new wave of automation is far more damaging. In the past, technology CREATED jobs... the automobile, the telephone, etc all spurred HUGE job growth,.. this new wave of technology is replacing jobs at a far higher rate than it creates them.. Of course there will be some service technicians, but for the most part if you want a million of something, one person drafts it, and the machine pretty much will spit it out, nearly unsupervised.
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Re: How Long

Postby Nesikep » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:08 am

OK, part 2: Taxation
Flat rate for everyone? well, if you're just scraping by, any tax is going to affect your quality of life drastically.. I am in agreement with a progressive taxation rate.. but will leave the finer details out.. I do think that if you can afford a house, car, gizmos, etc, somewhere around that point the tax rate should increase.

Corporate taxes.. now there's the fun one.. Why is it that a corporation can write off all their expenses and the private individual can't? There are far too many loopholes, and the worst part is a small business can't find them because they can't afford to have a posse of accountants and lawyers who's sole purpose is to find them and exploit them.. I'm sure everyone around here brings their books in to a local accountant that kinda just plugs things into a spreadsheet and voila, your books are done.. but there's no motivation to dig and really get you the best deal, and even if they did, the additional time it takes them would eat up the gains since you're playing with a few grand, not a billion

A great start would be to reduce the need for taxation.. slashing the size of the gov't budget by about 50-75% would be a great start, but no one wants their pet projects abandoned
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Re: How Long

Postby Son of Butch » Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:17 am

Nesikep wrote: Who got bailed out?
And How was it accomplished?

Follow the money.....
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Re: How Long

Postby Nesikep » Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:01 am

Rhetorical question :)
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Re: How Long

Postby Caustic Burno » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:52 am

Nesikep wrote:OK, part 2: Taxation
Flat rate for everyone? well, if you're just scraping by, any tax is going to affect your quality of life drastically.. I am in agreement with a progressive taxation rate.. but will leave the finer details out.. I do think that if you can afford a house, car, gizmos, etc, somewhere around that point the tax rate should increase.

Corporate taxes.. now there's the fun one.. Why is it that a corporation can write off all their expenses and the private individual can't? There are far too many loopholes, and the worst part is a small business can't find them because they can't afford to have a posse of accountants and lawyers who's sole purpose is to find them and exploit them.. I'm sure everyone around here brings their books in to a local accountant that kinda just plugs things into a spreadsheet and voila, your books are done.. but there's no motivation to dig and really get you the best deal, and even if they did, the additional time it takes them would eat up the gains since you're playing with a few grand, not a billion

A great start would be to reduce the need for taxation.. slashing the size of the gov't budget by about 50-75% would be a great start, but no one wants their pet projects abandoned



Corporations don't pay taxes they collect them from the consumer.
Raise there taxes they just raise the product cost to yourself.
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