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make hamburger with unbred cows
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<blockquote data-quote="SRBeef" data-source="post: 606130" data-attributes="member: 7509"><p>I agree. Don't worry about what you call it or them. Just get them in good condition. I have been selling mine as natural beef, mostly grass fed with bit of corn to tame them and finish. Most folks just want the truth and a good product. There is pure "grassfed" beef that is not very edible too.</p><p></p><p>Folks want a good product. There is nothin wrong with giving them a bit of grain to tame them and help finish them.</p><p></p><p>I know this is one of the things that Joel Salatin makes a big thing of "no grain ever"... maybe in his location and situation in VA he can raise quality beef like that. I don't believe there is anything wrong with offering the cattle some free choice grain. </p><p></p><p>As you have found out, there are nutritional needs to be met, especially with a nursing cow, that just can not be met feeding them any old grass hay. "Dairy quality" hay maybe but even then there are some needed nutrients that may or may not be in that hay no matter how much of it they eat.</p><p></p><p>I think Salatin has some good points. He and others are concerned about excessive levels of fat in meat that we buy at the store. But as all of the innovators they tend to be extremely focused on ONE</p><p>way to do things. People want to know where their food comes from and what it has been fed. That is a good thing, I believe. There are also many reasons to try to buy locally raised food whenever possible.</p><p></p><p>Frankly I'm not sure that the word "organic" is really appropriate for beef. I was looking to buy a couple Herefords and went to look at some the seller made a big point of being "organic"....well they may have been "organic" but they sure looked sick even to a beginner like me. I could see one with obvious pinkeye, several had really runny noses....etc. I said no thanks.</p><p></p><p>There is nothing wrong with vaccinations - we vaccinate our kids don't we? De worming with Basic H may work. I don't want to say that it doesn't. I have a very good experienced vet that raises cattle himself. He feels there is nothing wrong with using Ivomec IF you follow label directions. There is a presribed amount to use on each animal depending on their weight. There is also a minimum withdrawal period prior to slaughter. I would pay attention to both of those. I skip the last deworm prior to slaughter so it is about 9 months between the last deworm and slaughter.</p><p></p><p>The question is, which is more desireable, cattle free of worms and parasites and then allowed an extended withdrawal period or cattle with worms and parasites that may or may not be removed with the Basic H? Maybe Salatin has a clean enough herd and large enough land area that he can keep his herd clean with just basic H in the water. I know I just can't manage that with my situation to even give it a try.</p><p></p><p>Looking at your cattle photos I don't think anyone here can say that they have worms etc but mostly look to my novice eye that they need more nutrition. But at this point it is hard to tell so maybe you do everything you can to get them back into condition. Do you have a good, experienced, cattle vet that you can have come over and give you his opinion? Maybe the basic H is working - its just hard to tell.</p><p></p><p>Kelp definitely has nutrients that are useful. I'm running a test on that myself. But I do offer my cattle Mineralyx which has some very difficult to supply minerals and vitamins in it. And I know the Mineralyx is a good clean product with just what it says on the spec sheet, no animal products and no ammoniated whatever... I look at it like giving your kids vitamins when you are not sure if they are getting everything they need in their food. </p><p></p><p>Mineralyx is expensive but it was suggested to me by a neighbor and it really works in my area. It supplies several nutrients that are known to be low in local WI soils such as selenium. IS there selenium in kelp? Darned if I know. I'm not going to take a chance. Things like copper, phosphorus, manganese, some vitamins etc are absolutely essential to healthy animals, especially healthy calves and easy calving. I have a feeling that there may be certain persistent herd problems which can be traced back to a shortage of one or more of these minute nutrients.</p><p></p><p>What we want to avoid is "excessive" and unnecessary medication. </p><p></p><p>My oldest daughter is a medical doctor - MD in family practice. She says that one of the biggest issues she runs into in her practice is that a lot of the antibiotics that formerly worked for various human illnesses no longer work as they used to. It's like taking your hammer and screw driver out of the toolbox. She's not an organic "fanatic" - just a young doctor commenting on what she sees in her day to day work.</p><p></p><p>She says even kids have built up a resistance to many antibiotics and there is a school of thought that this is occurring because of the low level of antibiotics routinely used in agriculture, not because they are needed to fight a disease but as more or less preventive medication. There are low levels of antibiotics in many of the commercial animal products you buy in a grocery store. A similar reasoning may apply to growth hormones.</p><p></p><p>I feel THIS is the type of thing we should be working on in raising "natural" beef. I don't think you need to worry about whether or not your cattle ate some free choice corn. </p><p></p><p>If an animal is sick you do whatever is necessary, including antibiotics if that is the best remedy, to make them healthy again. However, it may be that, like with our own bodies, if you follow good nutrition, get exercise, get immunized against some common diseases, drink lots of clean water and live in a clean environment then maybe there won't be the need for emergency antibiotics, etc. at least not so often. And definitely not the need to have them in an animals feed "just in case". jmho. </p><p></p><p>I want to congratulate you an the way you have stuck with this thread and shared your experience. It takes a tough hide some times but I would guess many others have learned from it also. Best of luck, nygrass (& a little bit of corn)!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SRBeef, post: 606130, member: 7509"] I agree. Don't worry about what you call it or them. Just get them in good condition. I have been selling mine as natural beef, mostly grass fed with bit of corn to tame them and finish. Most folks just want the truth and a good product. There is pure "grassfed" beef that is not very edible too. Folks want a good product. There is nothin wrong with giving them a bit of grain to tame them and help finish them. I know this is one of the things that Joel Salatin makes a big thing of "no grain ever"... maybe in his location and situation in VA he can raise quality beef like that. I don't believe there is anything wrong with offering the cattle some free choice grain. As you have found out, there are nutritional needs to be met, especially with a nursing cow, that just can not be met feeding them any old grass hay. "Dairy quality" hay maybe but even then there are some needed nutrients that may or may not be in that hay no matter how much of it they eat. I think Salatin has some good points. He and others are concerned about excessive levels of fat in meat that we buy at the store. But as all of the innovators they tend to be extremely focused on ONE way to do things. People want to know where their food comes from and what it has been fed. That is a good thing, I believe. There are also many reasons to try to buy locally raised food whenever possible. Frankly I'm not sure that the word "organic" is really appropriate for beef. I was looking to buy a couple Herefords and went to look at some the seller made a big point of being "organic"....well they may have been "organic" but they sure looked sick even to a beginner like me. I could see one with obvious pinkeye, several had really runny noses....etc. I said no thanks. There is nothing wrong with vaccinations - we vaccinate our kids don't we? De worming with Basic H may work. I don't want to say that it doesn't. I have a very good experienced vet that raises cattle himself. He feels there is nothing wrong with using Ivomec IF you follow label directions. There is a presribed amount to use on each animal depending on their weight. There is also a minimum withdrawal period prior to slaughter. I would pay attention to both of those. I skip the last deworm prior to slaughter so it is about 9 months between the last deworm and slaughter. The question is, which is more desireable, cattle free of worms and parasites and then allowed an extended withdrawal period or cattle with worms and parasites that may or may not be removed with the Basic H? Maybe Salatin has a clean enough herd and large enough land area that he can keep his herd clean with just basic H in the water. I know I just can't manage that with my situation to even give it a try. Looking at your cattle photos I don't think anyone here can say that they have worms etc but mostly look to my novice eye that they need more nutrition. But at this point it is hard to tell so maybe you do everything you can to get them back into condition. Do you have a good, experienced, cattle vet that you can have come over and give you his opinion? Maybe the basic H is working - its just hard to tell. Kelp definitely has nutrients that are useful. I'm running a test on that myself. But I do offer my cattle Mineralyx which has some very difficult to supply minerals and vitamins in it. And I know the Mineralyx is a good clean product with just what it says on the spec sheet, no animal products and no ammoniated whatever... I look at it like giving your kids vitamins when you are not sure if they are getting everything they need in their food. Mineralyx is expensive but it was suggested to me by a neighbor and it really works in my area. It supplies several nutrients that are known to be low in local WI soils such as selenium. IS there selenium in kelp? Darned if I know. I'm not going to take a chance. Things like copper, phosphorus, manganese, some vitamins etc are absolutely essential to healthy animals, especially healthy calves and easy calving. I have a feeling that there may be certain persistent herd problems which can be traced back to a shortage of one or more of these minute nutrients. What we want to avoid is "excessive" and unnecessary medication. My oldest daughter is a medical doctor - MD in family practice. She says that one of the biggest issues she runs into in her practice is that a lot of the antibiotics that formerly worked for various human illnesses no longer work as they used to. It's like taking your hammer and screw driver out of the toolbox. She's not an organic "fanatic" - just a young doctor commenting on what she sees in her day to day work. She says even kids have built up a resistance to many antibiotics and there is a school of thought that this is occurring because of the low level of antibiotics routinely used in agriculture, not because they are needed to fight a disease but as more or less preventive medication. There are low levels of antibiotics in many of the commercial animal products you buy in a grocery store. A similar reasoning may apply to growth hormones. I feel THIS is the type of thing we should be working on in raising "natural" beef. I don't think you need to worry about whether or not your cattle ate some free choice corn. If an animal is sick you do whatever is necessary, including antibiotics if that is the best remedy, to make them healthy again. However, it may be that, like with our own bodies, if you follow good nutrition, get exercise, get immunized against some common diseases, drink lots of clean water and live in a clean environment then maybe there won't be the need for emergency antibiotics, etc. at least not so often. And definitely not the need to have them in an animals feed "just in case". jmho. I want to congratulate you an the way you have stuck with this thread and shared your experience. It takes a tough hide some times but I would guess many others have learned from it also. Best of luck, nygrass (& a little bit of corn)! [/QUOTE]
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