Menu
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New profile posts
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Members
Current visitors
New profile posts
Search profile posts
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles and first posts only
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Forums
Cattle Boards
Breeds Board
Longevity or Lack of It
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Help Support CattleToday:
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Frankie" data-source="post: 76433" data-attributes="member: 13"><p>I'm not yelling. Yelling is ALL CAPS. Bold is for emphasis. I don't want you to miss any of what I consider important points since you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hey, I posted an opinion about how longevity is related to genetic improvement and you jumped in the middle of it. Now you claim to be defending your honor :?: </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Performance may begin at calving, but the genetic ability to perform is bred into the animal. A favorite saying of the extension officer who used to run our OK Steer feed out was "you can mismanage a calf from Prime to Select; but you can't manage a calf from Select to Prime." It's the same with other traits. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It depends on which Angus sires you're looking at. Looking at the Angus Sire Summary, in 1972, the <strong>average</strong> BW reported in the AHIR program for Angus bull calves was 69 lbs. In 2003 (the latest date in the Sire Summary, it was 81 lbs.; we've added 12 lbs to the <strong>average</strong> BW of Angus calves reported in the AHIR program. Same table of info, same Sire Summary: in 1972 the <strong>average</strong> WW of an Angus bull calf was 477 lbs; 2003 it was 640. Since 1972, on <strong>average</strong>, we've added 163 lbs of weaning weight for 12 lbs of birthweight. Without digging out AHIR reports, I know that my BWs are average, or less, but my WWs are higher than average most years. This year, we're calving out a lot of heifers, so I may not have those higher WWs. I call that an improvement in performance. You may not be in the cattle business to make money, but I am and most of the people buying my bulls seem to be intersted in that aspect, too. I wouldn't call myself a "terminal" breeder. There are quite a few cows in this country sired by my bulls. My neighbor to the south has been running one of my bulls for 5-6 years now and he keeps heifers. I try to raise fertile, sound bulls with balanced EPDs that will also perform in the feedlot.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, the extension folks can show us on paper where it's more economical to buy replacements, but most people I know raise their own.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We can argue all day about what the term "proven" means. Generally, I look at an EPD accuracy of over .85 for an Angus bull before I'll use him. I also go to a lot of bull sales and evaluate sons of bulls that I'm considering using. I like to see daughters, too, but am not able to see as many of those. But I talk to other Angus breeders at sales and get an idea of how daughters are working out of bulls that I'm considering. I'm still using the older bulls Krugerrand and EXT. They're solid proven bulls that will compete with any younger bull. Several years ago, I saw an Alliance group buy the right to flush a high dollar Angus cow. They chose to flush her to AAR New Trend, an old bull who shows up in a lot of popular current Angus sires. I saw a bull test report that showed the performance of some of the bull calves out of that flush. They were aveage performers. I assumed they were flushing to get some cows and I hope they were successful. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Angus Association is following the Red Angus people in working on a logvevity EPD. Personally, I'm not particuarlly interested in one. IMO, mnagement has as much to do with how long a cow will be productive as her genetics. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, you have to look at the particular bull. Many of those AI bulls are collected, then sent home to work in the pasture. Also, reference the post earlier about the stresses on them while at stud.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Boy, after seeing the prices being paid for Angus bulls in East Texas, I hope we can keep making this "mistake." Something like 97% of the ranchers responding to an Angus survey say they plan to buy an Angus bull this year. The US cow herd is finally growing. Nothing works better on a heifer than an Angus bull with reliable EPDs. And producers are keeping those Angus heifers, so they need another bull.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In your mind, not in mine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Show me some facts that prove the biggest users of Angus bulls are terminal cross breeders. Here in OK, Angus sired heifers out sell everything else at the replacement heifer sales that I've seen. And they're generally bred to a "calving ease Angus bull." The OK Cattlemen's group has a replacement female sale every fall and almost everything sold is black; heifers known to be sired by Angus are generally the highest selling. Yes, you can get a terminal Angus bull if you want, but those Angus cows are very popular, at least in my area. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hopefully, you understand me a bit better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're right to focus on your customer's needs. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You'll need to talk to a line breeding guru and that's not me. But I don't believe it's "quick" to line breed. When you line breed, you bring out the good traits, but you also bring out the bad traits. A serious line breeder will take those bad ones to the sale barn. I think it's very difficult to pass on a linebred herd to another producer, either through inheritance or a sale. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It only tells you that if you have your mind made up already. I am in the business of producing Angus bulls for commercial cattlemen. When one of them doesn't make the "cut", they usually go to the sale barn. When a heifer or cow doesn't breed or raises a sorry calf, she goes to the sale barn. We sold an Angus bull to the neighbor this year that didn't make the "cut." He was looking for a calving ease bull and knows the calf got sick on test, plus he knows our program and is happy with the bulls he's bought from us in the past. I've also had people pull us out of the sale barn line and ask to buy bulls we've got in the trailer. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think I've said Angus is "far superior." I have a long list of feed test stations across the US that feed all breeds of bulls. Would you like to have it? I have watched the Angus ADG and WDA go up over the years, while some breeds have gone down or remained the same. I get out to other breed sales several times a year. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Everyone has an opinion. I try to learn from other breeds and breeders. I said earlier that I'm not a big fan of MARC, but I do like the lastest info on Angus they're publishing. So maybe I'll learn to like them. ;-) </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>MARC is highly regarded in many circles. There's no getting away from the value of heterosis. But the beef industry has changed greatly over the last few years and will continue to do so. If you didn't read the article here at CattleToday about the changes, you should try to find it in the archives. Let me know if you want me to find it for you. Alliances and branded beef programs are going to demand more specialized genetics. I think the best way to fill those demands will be with straightbred cattle. Laura's Lean has been paying a premium for straightbred Limousin cattle for years. We know cattle sired by an Angus bull are more likely to hit the CAB target. The PGA branded beef program is taking off in my area. Bradley's Angus beef program has been bought out by Coleman's "natural" beef and they're looking for a specifically bred animal.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Frankie, post: 76433, member: 13"] I'm not yelling. Yelling is ALL CAPS. Bold is for emphasis. I don't want you to miss any of what I consider important points since you seem to be trying to put words in my mouth. Hey, I posted an opinion about how longevity is related to genetic improvement and you jumped in the middle of it. Now you claim to be defending your honor :?: Performance may begin at calving, but the genetic ability to perform is bred into the animal. A favorite saying of the extension officer who used to run our OK Steer feed out was "you can mismanage a calf from Prime to Select; but you can't manage a calf from Select to Prime." It's the same with other traits. It depends on which Angus sires you're looking at. Looking at the Angus Sire Summary, in 1972, the [b]average[/b] BW reported in the AHIR program for Angus bull calves was 69 lbs. In 2003 (the latest date in the Sire Summary, it was 81 lbs.; we've added 12 lbs to the [b]average[/b] BW of Angus calves reported in the AHIR program. Same table of info, same Sire Summary: in 1972 the [b]average[/b] WW of an Angus bull calf was 477 lbs; 2003 it was 640. Since 1972, on [b]average[/b], we've added 163 lbs of weaning weight for 12 lbs of birthweight. Without digging out AHIR reports, I know that my BWs are average, or less, but my WWs are higher than average most years. This year, we're calving out a lot of heifers, so I may not have those higher WWs. I call that an improvement in performance. You may not be in the cattle business to make money, but I am and most of the people buying my bulls seem to be intersted in that aspect, too. I wouldn't call myself a "terminal" breeder. There are quite a few cows in this country sired by my bulls. My neighbor to the south has been running one of my bulls for 5-6 years now and he keeps heifers. I try to raise fertile, sound bulls with balanced EPDs that will also perform in the feedlot. Well, the extension folks can show us on paper where it's more economical to buy replacements, but most people I know raise their own. We can argue all day about what the term "proven" means. Generally, I look at an EPD accuracy of over .85 for an Angus bull before I'll use him. I also go to a lot of bull sales and evaluate sons of bulls that I'm considering using. I like to see daughters, too, but am not able to see as many of those. But I talk to other Angus breeders at sales and get an idea of how daughters are working out of bulls that I'm considering. I'm still using the older bulls Krugerrand and EXT. They're solid proven bulls that will compete with any younger bull. Several years ago, I saw an Alliance group buy the right to flush a high dollar Angus cow. They chose to flush her to AAR New Trend, an old bull who shows up in a lot of popular current Angus sires. I saw a bull test report that showed the performance of some of the bull calves out of that flush. They were aveage performers. I assumed they were flushing to get some cows and I hope they were successful. The Angus Association is following the Red Angus people in working on a logvevity EPD. Personally, I'm not particuarlly interested in one. IMO, mnagement has as much to do with how long a cow will be productive as her genetics. Again, you have to look at the particular bull. Many of those AI bulls are collected, then sent home to work in the pasture. Also, reference the post earlier about the stresses on them while at stud. Boy, after seeing the prices being paid for Angus bulls in East Texas, I hope we can keep making this "mistake." Something like 97% of the ranchers responding to an Angus survey say they plan to buy an Angus bull this year. The US cow herd is finally growing. Nothing works better on a heifer than an Angus bull with reliable EPDs. And producers are keeping those Angus heifers, so they need another bull. In your mind, not in mine. Show me some facts that prove the biggest users of Angus bulls are terminal cross breeders. Here in OK, Angus sired heifers out sell everything else at the replacement heifer sales that I've seen. And they're generally bred to a "calving ease Angus bull." The OK Cattlemen's group has a replacement female sale every fall and almost everything sold is black; heifers known to be sired by Angus are generally the highest selling. Yes, you can get a terminal Angus bull if you want, but those Angus cows are very popular, at least in my area. Hopefully, you understand me a bit better. You're right to focus on your customer's needs. You'll need to talk to a line breeding guru and that's not me. But I don't believe it's "quick" to line breed. When you line breed, you bring out the good traits, but you also bring out the bad traits. A serious line breeder will take those bad ones to the sale barn. I think it's very difficult to pass on a linebred herd to another producer, either through inheritance or a sale. It only tells you that if you have your mind made up already. I am in the business of producing Angus bulls for commercial cattlemen. When one of them doesn't make the "cut", they usually go to the sale barn. When a heifer or cow doesn't breed or raises a sorry calf, she goes to the sale barn. We sold an Angus bull to the neighbor this year that didn't make the "cut." He was looking for a calving ease bull and knows the calf got sick on test, plus he knows our program and is happy with the bulls he's bought from us in the past. I've also had people pull us out of the sale barn line and ask to buy bulls we've got in the trailer. I don't think I've said Angus is "far superior." I have a long list of feed test stations across the US that feed all breeds of bulls. Would you like to have it? I have watched the Angus ADG and WDA go up over the years, while some breeds have gone down or remained the same. I get out to other breed sales several times a year. Everyone has an opinion. I try to learn from other breeds and breeders. I said earlier that I'm not a big fan of MARC, but I do like the lastest info on Angus they're publishing. So maybe I'll learn to like them. ;-) MARC is highly regarded in many circles. There's no getting away from the value of heterosis. But the beef industry has changed greatly over the last few years and will continue to do so. If you didn't read the article here at CattleToday about the changes, you should try to find it in the archives. Let me know if you want me to find it for you. Alliances and branded beef programs are going to demand more specialized genetics. I think the best way to fill those demands will be with straightbred cattle. Laura's Lean has been paying a premium for straightbred Limousin cattle for years. We know cattle sired by an Angus bull are more likely to hit the CAB target. The PGA branded beef program is taking off in my area. Bradley's Angus beef program has been bought out by Coleman's "natural" beef and they're looking for a specifically bred animal. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Cattle Boards
Breeds Board
Longevity or Lack of It
Top