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<blockquote data-quote="cjmc" data-source="post: 1665889" data-attributes="member: 27842"><p>I'm assuming we are talking native winter range here. Which in that case 55% TDN is high & depending on where in Texas- maybe way to high. Most alfalfa hay will run between 50-60% TDN for reference. If he is SE texas near Arkansas where it rains a lot & they raise a bunch of grass. NDF could be in the 60 plus range and TDN could be sub 40%. In general- winter grass quality gets lower as you travel south east. NDF becomes very important because it may physically limit their ability to consume the amount of grass you typically think they would. Example if a 1400 pound cow would typically eat 32 pounds- dry matter. When given hay that is 75% NDF she could only actually eat 22.4 pounds dry matter. I didn't look hard- but did find a sample of grass in October in Oklahoma (yeah I know that's a long way away- but it shows my point) it was 4.5% CP and 75% NDF- didn't have a TDN number with it but I would guess less than 40%</p><p></p><p>One thing your computer program does not take into consideration is the impact of protein- or lack there of on intake of low quality forage. If cattle consume a diet sub 6-7% CP then intake falls off & depending on how far below that 6-7% you are depends on how low intake will fall- this would exacerbate the difference between the two scenarios and the non-supplemented cattle will consume significantly less Mcal's & lose a lot more weight than the supplemented cattle. NDF is mostly indigestible- but the protein supplement will help increase it's digestion to some degree. </p><p></p><p>Another thing to consider is that the liquid may contain a VTM package in it. And therefore may be hiding about $0.10/h/d of value. </p><p></p><p>With DDG in the Texas at $300 plus/ton the liquid seems like a pretty decent price right now/ unit of CP- reason being is I would assume it's mostly NPN. </p><p></p><p>Winter protein supplementation is typically a large expense- protein is expensive in general but especially this year with corn & beans jumping in price. If your feedstuffs alone are enough to hit MP & Mcal requirements that's great. But if they aren't & you decide not to try and save money by shorting them- it will cost you more in the long run from lower & later bred-backs to lighter calves or less performance in the feedyard. </p><p></p><p>Precalving all he probably needed was the protein & depending on the grass some energy the last 45 days before calving. Post calving with the diet mostly native range he'll need both a protein source & some extra energy to hit both MP & NEm requirements.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="cjmc, post: 1665889, member: 27842"] I'm assuming we are talking native winter range here. Which in that case 55% TDN is high & depending on where in Texas- maybe way to high. Most alfalfa hay will run between 50-60% TDN for reference. If he is SE texas near Arkansas where it rains a lot & they raise a bunch of grass. NDF could be in the 60 plus range and TDN could be sub 40%. In general- winter grass quality gets lower as you travel south east. NDF becomes very important because it may physically limit their ability to consume the amount of grass you typically think they would. Example if a 1400 pound cow would typically eat 32 pounds- dry matter. When given hay that is 75% NDF she could only actually eat 22.4 pounds dry matter. I didn't look hard- but did find a sample of grass in October in Oklahoma (yeah I know that's a long way away- but it shows my point) it was 4.5% CP and 75% NDF- didn't have a TDN number with it but I would guess less than 40% One thing your computer program does not take into consideration is the impact of protein- or lack there of on intake of low quality forage. If cattle consume a diet sub 6-7% CP then intake falls off & depending on how far below that 6-7% you are depends on how low intake will fall- this would exacerbate the difference between the two scenarios and the non-supplemented cattle will consume significantly less Mcal's & lose a lot more weight than the supplemented cattle. NDF is mostly indigestible- but the protein supplement will help increase it's digestion to some degree. Another thing to consider is that the liquid may contain a VTM package in it. And therefore may be hiding about $0.10/h/d of value. With DDG in the Texas at $300 plus/ton the liquid seems like a pretty decent price right now/ unit of CP- reason being is I would assume it's mostly NPN. Winter protein supplementation is typically a large expense- protein is expensive in general but especially this year with corn & beans jumping in price. If your feedstuffs alone are enough to hit MP & Mcal requirements that's great. But if they aren't & you decide not to try and save money by shorting them- it will cost you more in the long run from lower & later bred-backs to lighter calves or less performance in the feedyard. Precalving all he probably needed was the protein & depending on the grass some energy the last 45 days before calving. Post calving with the diet mostly native range he'll need both a protein source & some extra energy to hit both MP & NEm requirements. [/QUOTE]
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