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<blockquote data-quote="Dega Moo" data-source="post: 979852" data-attributes="member: 19930"><p>BHB - yes I've read everything here including Jogee posts. He makes a point about the 2nd Amendment essentially defining the security clause of the 2nd rather narrowly. While the security clause surely includes protections against the national government it also included protection from foreign countries, pirates, natives and all other threats. Remember that we had a very small standing army at the time and the colonies/states provided militia men to augment that small force. And those men provided their own arms! And those bums the British still lurked on our Northern Border while the Spanish and French continued to nose around. Personally, I prefer to rest our 2nd Amendment rights on more than protecting us from our own government. The 2nd needs to be broadly defined because arguing it's intended solely to overthrow our own abusive government probably wouldn't cut it with our courts or the electorate. We already have the ability to overthrow our government by voting we don't need the 2nd to toss the bums out. </p><p></p><p>Joggee also referenced Jefferson and I'm in agreement with Jefferson (and Jogee on this point) - we shouldn't trade our liberties for any reason. I'm not advocating bartering away our liberties or our right to own guns. Jogee also makes some statements about paroles, prison terms and such. My personal belief is we tend to coddle criminals and those suggestions might make a good start, but I think a prison term is a prison term. What's up with this parole stuff?</p><p></p><p>Finally, Jogee writes that it's impossible to stop a madman if he wants to kill us referencing the 9 11 attacks and talks about spilling civilian blood as sometimes the cost of freedom. First, I would not lump a state sponsored terror act such as 9 11 with what happened in Newtown - different madnesses, different solutions. Second, I would agree it's pretty difficult to stop 100% of all these massacres but it doesn't need be all or none. Third, well someone else can tell the parents of those kids their child's blood was spilled as part of the price of freedom.</p><p></p><p>Essentially I think the mood of the country is very different right now and the bluff, bluster and yelling that in the past convinced our elected representatives to support our gun rights is not going to be enough this time. Now is not the time to marginalize ourselves by attempting to minimize Newtown with jaded comparisons of shooting statistics of Chicago school age children for 2012 with the Newtown massacre.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dega Moo, post: 979852, member: 19930"] BHB - yes I've read everything here including Jogee posts. He makes a point about the 2nd Amendment essentially defining the security clause of the 2nd rather narrowly. While the security clause surely includes protections against the national government it also included protection from foreign countries, pirates, natives and all other threats. Remember that we had a very small standing army at the time and the colonies/states provided militia men to augment that small force. And those men provided their own arms! And those bums the British still lurked on our Northern Border while the Spanish and French continued to nose around. Personally, I prefer to rest our 2nd Amendment rights on more than protecting us from our own government. The 2nd needs to be broadly defined because arguing it's intended solely to overthrow our own abusive government probably wouldn't cut it with our courts or the electorate. We already have the ability to overthrow our government by voting we don't need the 2nd to toss the bums out. Joggee also referenced Jefferson and I'm in agreement with Jefferson (and Jogee on this point) - we shouldn't trade our liberties for any reason. I'm not advocating bartering away our liberties or our right to own guns. Jogee also makes some statements about paroles, prison terms and such. My personal belief is we tend to coddle criminals and those suggestions might make a good start, but I think a prison term is a prison term. What's up with this parole stuff? Finally, Jogee writes that it's impossible to stop a madman if he wants to kill us referencing the 9 11 attacks and talks about spilling civilian blood as sometimes the cost of freedom. First, I would not lump a state sponsored terror act such as 9 11 with what happened in Newtown - different madnesses, different solutions. Second, I would agree it's pretty difficult to stop 100% of all these massacres but it doesn't need be all or none. Third, well someone else can tell the parents of those kids their child's blood was spilled as part of the price of freedom. Essentially I think the mood of the country is very different right now and the bluff, bluster and yelling that in the past convinced our elected representatives to support our gun rights is not going to be enough this time. Now is not the time to marginalize ourselves by attempting to minimize Newtown with jaded comparisons of shooting statistics of Chicago school age children for 2012 with the Newtown massacre. [/QUOTE]
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