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<blockquote data-quote="Texan" data-source="post: 273567" data-attributes="member: 416"><p>This is from Ranchers concerning the same calf:</p><p></p><p></p><p>Thanks for your input, DOC. Someone else had mentioned to me in a PM about the tube and the possibility of puncturing the lung. As I said in my post about the lung, I'm <u>almost</u> certain that we didn't do it. And keep in mind that he was already having trouble breathing before I ever used the tube---that's why I did it---to be sure there wasn't something in the back of his throat. The calf was laying down on his left side when I used the tube from a tube feeder to see if there was something in his throat, because I couldn't see down it and couldn't get my fingers down it far enough. It was a last resort before shooting him, anyway. The tube has a bulb on the end of it, and since I've never gotten fluid into the lungs of a <em>baby</em> calf with it before, I'm pretty sure that I didn't go in deep enough to go <em>into</em> and <em>through</em> the lung of a 200 pound calf. Especially since I didn't even use all of the tube. Certainly not impossible for it to be a puncture from the tube, though. Sure looks like it, but as you can see from the following pic, there was no blood on the outside of the lung. There was also no coughing of blood, no blood out the nose and no change in his breathing after I put the tube in his throat and found that the throat was clear.</p><p></p><p>As far as disinfecting the navel, in this case we actually did that. But only because it was a late bull calf. We try to catch those late bulls on the day they're born, or the second day, at the latest. I hold the calf and fight cows while my wife cuts them. After she sprays iodine on the cut, she always works some into the navel. The vast majority of my calves don't get their navels disinfected and WON'T. I calve in the pasture and let the cow do her job without worrying about me harrassing her baby, except on these late calves that are born after branding. The way I look at it, cows have been having calves for thousands of years without iodine. They'll lick it off and suck it out as soon as you turn the calf loose, anyway. You might could make the argument that iodine has already had time to do it's job by the time a cow licks it off, though. However, in this case, the calf got a navel infection in spite of the iodine. I do my best to calve in clean pastures, so I'm just not sold on the benefit of dipping or spraying navels <em>in my situation</em>. </p><p></p><p>On the colostrum, I never know for sure exactly how much a calf gets. I try to be sure that every calf has sucked within the first day, but I sure don't pen pairs, milk cows and force feed colostrum to calves if they haven't done it on their own in the first few hours. I have no reason to think that this calf didn't get enough colostrum, however.</p><p></p><p>I agree completely that it would be worth "a few dollars" to find out the real cause of his problem. But where we probably differ is on the definition of "a few dollars." It's possible (or probable) that "a few dollars" to you is quite different than "a few dollars" to me. As I mentioned previously, I would sure be the first to encourage anyone to use a vet for treatment (or post) of something that has happened more than once, so that we can know what we're dealing with and how to treat. But on these freaky deals, where the only thing to be gained is satisfying curiosity, I'll keep my money to use on something else. I place a low (zero?) monetary value on satisfying my curiosity. Especially this time of year, when it's been almost 12 months since a payday. I've learned from experience over the years that there <em>is</em> something worse than losing cattle and not knowing exactly why. That's losing those cattle and then getting a vet bill to add to the misery. I'm sure that I can't be the only one that feels that way?</p><p></p><p>Here's the best pic of that area. If anyone has already got the pre-conceived notion that this was a puncture from the inside of the lung, I don't think the pic will change your mind any. Except for the absence of blood in the area, it sure <em>appears</em> that it could have been. But there was never any reaction from the calf and never any coughing of blood or blood out the nose. And I could find no other reason for his shortness of breath BEFORE I ever put the tube in his throat to be sure he wasn't choking. IF it's a puncture (I never could determine for sure that it went all the way through), I would be more inclined to believe that it was done by a finger while scooping the lungs away from the ribs, or from a broken rib that I just didn't find. I just can't say definitively one way or another. The absence of blood just makes me wonder if it was a defect, or something manual done after death. The shape of it sure makes it appear to be something manual. But if something manual done prior to death, why no blood? In any case, it wasn't the deciding factor in his death. It was just the only thing unusual that I found. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, DOC. </p><p></p><p></p><p><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/Texpics/100_0309.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Texan, post: 273567, member: 416"] This is from Ranchers concerning the same calf: Thanks for your input, DOC. Someone else had mentioned to me in a PM about the tube and the possibility of puncturing the lung. As I said in my post about the lung, I'm [u]almost[/u] certain that we didn't do it. And keep in mind that he was already having trouble breathing before I ever used the tube---that's why I did it---to be sure there wasn't something in the back of his throat. The calf was laying down on his left side when I used the tube from a tube feeder to see if there was something in his throat, because I couldn't see down it and couldn't get my fingers down it far enough. It was a last resort before shooting him, anyway. The tube has a bulb on the end of it, and since I've never gotten fluid into the lungs of a [i]baby[/i] calf with it before, I'm pretty sure that I didn't go in deep enough to go [i]into[/i] and [i]through[/i] the lung of a 200 pound calf. Especially since I didn't even use all of the tube. Certainly not impossible for it to be a puncture from the tube, though. Sure looks like it, but as you can see from the following pic, there was no blood on the outside of the lung. There was also no coughing of blood, no blood out the nose and no change in his breathing after I put the tube in his throat and found that the throat was clear. As far as disinfecting the navel, in this case we actually did that. But only because it was a late bull calf. We try to catch those late bulls on the day they're born, or the second day, at the latest. I hold the calf and fight cows while my wife cuts them. After she sprays iodine on the cut, she always works some into the navel. The vast majority of my calves don't get their navels disinfected and WON'T. I calve in the pasture and let the cow do her job without worrying about me harrassing her baby, except on these late calves that are born after branding. The way I look at it, cows have been having calves for thousands of years without iodine. They'll lick it off and suck it out as soon as you turn the calf loose, anyway. You might could make the argument that iodine has already had time to do it's job by the time a cow licks it off, though. However, in this case, the calf got a navel infection in spite of the iodine. I do my best to calve in clean pastures, so I'm just not sold on the benefit of dipping or spraying navels [i]in my situation[/i]. On the colostrum, I never know for sure exactly how much a calf gets. I try to be sure that every calf has sucked within the first day, but I sure don't pen pairs, milk cows and force feed colostrum to calves if they haven't done it on their own in the first few hours. I have no reason to think that this calf didn't get enough colostrum, however. I agree completely that it would be worth "a few dollars" to find out the real cause of his problem. But where we probably differ is on the definition of "a few dollars." It's possible (or probable) that "a few dollars" to you is quite different than "a few dollars" to me. As I mentioned previously, I would sure be the first to encourage anyone to use a vet for treatment (or post) of something that has happened more than once, so that we can know what we're dealing with and how to treat. But on these freaky deals, where the only thing to be gained is satisfying curiosity, I'll keep my money to use on something else. I place a low (zero?) monetary value on satisfying my curiosity. Especially this time of year, when it's been almost 12 months since a payday. I've learned from experience over the years that there [i]is[/i] something worse than losing cattle and not knowing exactly why. That's losing those cattle and then getting a vet bill to add to the misery. I'm sure that I can't be the only one that feels that way? Here's the best pic of that area. If anyone has already got the pre-conceived notion that this was a puncture from the inside of the lung, I don't think the pic will change your mind any. Except for the absence of blood in the area, it sure [i]appears[/i] that it could have been. But there was never any reaction from the calf and never any coughing of blood or blood out the nose. And I could find no other reason for his shortness of breath BEFORE I ever put the tube in his throat to be sure he wasn't choking. IF it's a puncture (I never could determine for sure that it went all the way through), I would be more inclined to believe that it was done by a finger while scooping the lungs away from the ribs, or from a broken rib that I just didn't find. I just can't say definitively one way or another. The absence of blood just makes me wonder if it was a defect, or something manual done after death. The shape of it sure makes it appear to be something manual. But if something manual done prior to death, why no blood? In any case, it wasn't the deciding factor in his death. It was just the only thing unusual that I found. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, DOC. [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/Texpics/100_0309.jpg[/img] [/QUOTE]
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