Stocking rates and grazing plans

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This episode starts slow but has a very practical duscission, imo, on the different grazing methods, how it can effect cattle performance, wildlife, plants, etc. They discuss the balance of being overstocked vs understocked.

My favorite comment is some thing along the lines of... no grazing system works if you are overstocked.

 
This episode starts slow but has a very practical duscission, imo, on the different grazing methods, how it can effect cattle performance, wildlife, plants, etc. They discuss the balance of being overstocked vs understocked.

My favorite comment is some thing along the lines of... no grazing system works if you are overstocked.


Blazin Grazin is amazin???

Had to say that. I'll have to look at these later. Too busy right now.
 
The more I leave behind 'em, the more I have in front of 'em.
This is one I struggle with. The further down I take it, the more diverse and leafy the regrowth is. The less I take, the less diverse and more apt to have stems/stalks that cause eye damage. Except for early spring and early fall. Seems taking it all at end of spring clears the way for warm seasons to explode. Same with end of summer.

With the lack of precip this year i have been attempting to find the median between the two. It is obvious where ive taken more and less. Cant tell ya which one is better.

Take more and they move thru slower. Take less and they move faster.
 
It amuses me when I see websites or u tube that are pushing information which has been common knowledge for decades. Steve Franson ( I believe he is retired now. But PhD WSU extremely knowledgeable grass expert ) one time told me he came up with what he thought was a great new idea regarding grass management. While thinking about how to fund the research to prove this idea he was reading an old agriculture text book. There in this book with a 1910 copy right was his "new idea". Things might be presented differently but not a new idea or concept.
 
It amuses me when I see websites or u tube that are pushing information which has been common knowledge for decades. Steve Franson ( I believe he is retired now. But PhD WSU extremely knowledgeable grass expert ) one time told me he came up with what he thought was a great new idea regarding grass management. While thinking about how to fund the research to prove this idea he was reading an old agriculture text book. There in this book with a 1910 copy right was his "new idea". Things might be presented differently but not a new idea or concept.
We just have to "relearn" things that have been learned in the past.
 
It amuses me when I see websites or u tube that are pushing information which has been common knowledge for decades. Steve Franson ( I believe he is retired now. But PhD WSU extremely knowledgeable grass expert ) one time told me he came up with what he thought was a great new idea regarding grass management. While thinking about how to fund the research to prove this idea he was reading an old agriculture text book. There in this book with a 1910 copy right was his "new idea". Things might be presented differently but not a new idea or concept.
You do realize new managers are made every day, right? You may have learned it originally in 1910 but not every one else did. That information has to be passed to the next group every year.

Many of these good podcasts or "YouTube(s)", are just verbal readings and discussions of published studies out of universities. Yall use to read them in text or sit through the discussion in a lecture building to get that infotmation. We can now listen to the exact same thing in the palm of our hand. What is amusing is people being all about the original study and not a podcast, like they are different.
 
We just have to "relearn" things that have been learned in the past.
I don't know about the "relearn" idea. But they are certainly presenting ideas to a new audience. I did that for years as part of my job. Because of how my job was structured I did it one on one generally out in the pasture. I guess what amuses me is how it is presented. Like it is a new idea or the latest scientific information. It is not the method used to present the information.
 
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Take half, leave half is the time tested principle that works best. The plants have to have some leaf left to photosynthesize.

The great horticulturist Neill Sperry was asked numerous times when to trim and shape newly planted trees. His response was to let them grow wild and untrimmed for three or so years so they would have the maximum leaves to catch the sun to photosynthesize. Its the same with plants. The sun makes the plants grow. The leaves catch the sun.

Hay fields that are scalped take longer to come back. Sorghum Sudan does best when cut for hay if you can cut it above the bottom leaves.
 
I don't know about the "relearn" idea. But they are certainly presenting ideas to a new audience. I did that for years as part of my job. I guess what amuses me is how it is presented. Like it is a new idea or the latest scientific information.
I have not seen any of the good ones I like present it as a new idea. They talk about how far the studies go back on patch burn grazing.

There does seem to be a renewed interest, or popularity, or refreshing, of this information lately, which is probably giving the appearance of it being pushed as new.
 
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Some thing that this episode spurred in my mind is how to actually measure what you are taking.

Last year I was shredding roads and had to cut across and open field that was pretty grown up. I thought it wouldnt hurt to cut one track through it for driving but I raised the shredder all the way up. I got out and took a pic with how much I cut because later when we put the cattle in I used that as a rough gauge to see how much was being eaten.

I would like to try some of the enclosures like they were talking about in pastures to be able to measure against. You kind of get that effect when you dive with hot wire. You can look at one side vs the other.
 
This is one I struggle with. The further down I take it, the more diverse and leafy the regrowth is. The less I take, the less diverse and more apt to have stems/stalks that cause eye damage. Except for early spring and early fall. Seems taking it all at end of spring clears the way for warm seasons to explode. Same with end of summer.

With the lack of precip this year i have been attempting to find the median between the two. It is obvious where ive taken more and less. Cant tell ya which one is better.

Take more and they move thru slower. Take less and they move faster.
The original "land-keepers" (the buffalo/wildlife like elk, deer, etc., along with all the other diversity that was a part of the environment) in general would never "graze it all down evenly"......... They were not "limited" in where they could go to graze... it was "open range" in the truest sense of the word. Though some of these animals traversed a fairly limited and "defined territory", for many that territory may have been hundreds, even thousands of miles... with the herds migrating with weather patterns and seasonally. They would continually graze "into" new grass, often going across an area once, and perhaps not returning for a year, or more.

We individually however, in an effort to achieve "efficiency" and "maximize income generated on the limited land resource that each of us have available to us", translate "total tons of forage grown/consumed per acre" with the efficiency of our operation. "How can we extract the maximum amount of forage, at the highest quality possible, from each acre of ground"?

So we look at a field, and consider that if we would mow everything off down to the ground and harvest it, we could "measure" our total tons of forage produced per acre. There's "no" waste, because we were able to "harvest it all"... no trampled waste, no half-harvested waste. And if we harvest ALL of that forage across every acre at "boot stage", we will be able to capture the maximum tonnage at the highest relative feed value, from every acre, which translates into the highest amount of gain/milk per ton of forage consumed. THAT is how we measure our "efficiency". NO strictly grazing model can ever achieve this... because there will ALWAYS be times when the forage is not at "optimal boot stage"... you couldn't have enough animals to consume the whole area.... and then be able to "wait" for the regrowth to get to that point again... by grazing. And you simply can't continually harvest at that perfect stage of forage, particularly if you want to maintain the stand of forage inevitably... Harvesting it all, at boot stage, is a certain recipe for reducing the stand of the very forages that you want to be harvesting. Which is why, in a row cropping scenario, we need to rotate out of our perennial forage crops into annuals................ harvesting for maximum feed quality and maximum tonnage automatically weakens the plants. They're never allowed to develop fully (including importantly, their root systems, particularly for perennial-type plants) and "mature".

And this system doesn't take into account the efficient functioning of the soil, or the environmental/ecological services provided by it and the plants. It too narrowly focuses on just a couple of things (reductionist science)... feed quality and tons produced per limited amount of acres available to us. This mentality causes us to seek additional, quantifiable, immediate-return "X in = X out" ways to increase that tonnage within this model. Enter the synthetics, which we have to pay for, but which certainly can increase the data inputs in the model, at least, and particularly..., in the short term. So we SEE this immediate "X in = X out" , short term response, and we "learn" to gradually, over time, turn more and more to it, and become more and more dependent upon... those synthetically derived, commercially sourced, costly inputs. We continue to build out our model based on these now required support systems (supplied by commercial, costly sources). We even base our land cost expectations upon them (pay more for an acre, because we're confident that we can force more "efficiency" out of the land than the next bidder). The next generation doesn't even remember that the whole system USED TO function entirely without these inputs. Our whole production model becomes highly dependent upon all of these crutches, and eventually would literally crumble without them. THAT is the "treadmill" that we slowly but surely drift into. But we, as a people, don't recognize that we are literally killing the horse that is carrying us along.

By cutting (or grazing) short, we DO replace all of the old growth with new regrowth, which naturally is more diverse and leafy... all plants are at their younger life stage. By cutting/grazing short, we open the canopy to expose forbes (more diversity...) that otherwise wouldn't compete with a tall, dense, more competitive grass cover, etc. This is precisely an important part of why tillage generates weeds. @ClinchValley86, everything that you state in your first paragraph makes perfect sense, in the short term... and in a production model that leans in part or in whole in the "maximizing efficiency" model described. And it's really difficult to describe and teach someone "how" to move toward a more "holistic" model (@ClinchValley86, you're obviously strongly engaged in that learning process... much more than many who have little interest in that learning...). I'm still working diligently at learning how to do that, every day, and making adjustments to my own "how", every day. I don't think that we can ever assume that we will no longer BE "learning how best to do this". I think that we are beginning to recognize that in the "original land-keepers" model, overall efficiency of production from (extractive) the system actually WASN'T DESIGNED TO BE maximized (or wasn't intended to be maximized beyond the natural capability), but overall efficiency of the entire ecological SYSTEM, and environmental services and BALANCE provided as a result... WAS maximized.

WE are just one small cog in that big overall systems wheel. WE are pretty insignificant, individually. But as a community, as a part of the whole, together, how WE function as a composite are a very important part of that overall system.
 
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They were not "limited" in where they could go to graze...
THAT is the key part which everyone misses when land users/managers/speakers say that cattle grazing/livestock grazing that emulates what native/natural grazers do/did is the way to manage. We cannot even get close to what they did because of both time and space constraints we are saddled with that did not functionally exist for them.
 
@RDFF Extremely well put. It is all but impossible to articulate the how. Has to be learned thru trial and error. I have errored way more than I have succeeded. But the fields look good. Lol. Ultimately, thats the resource im trying to better, or at least maintain, with zero crutches other than management.

I do want to think that the huge herds long ago did take it all down by the time they passed through. Stomped out if not eaten. Could be wrong though.

Those areas that weren't touched for a year or 10 is where the magic happened IMO.
 
Those areas that weren't touched for a year or 10 is where the magic happened IMO.
There is one problem with this statement.
just one small cog in that big overall systems wheel
function as a composite are a very important part of that overall system.
it takes EVERYTHING (overall system) together for the magic to really happen. Everything TOGETHER is the real magic. Individual components can be truly wonderous. You get a real synergistic effect when everything is combined. The whole is WAY greater than just the sum of the parts.
 
@RDFF Extremely well put. It is all but impossible to articulate the how. Has to be learned thru trial and error. I have errored way more than I have succeeded. But the fields look good. Lol. Ultimately, thats the resource im trying to better, or at least maintain, with zero crutches other than management.

I do want to think that the huge herds long ago did take it all down by the time they passed through. Stomped out if not eaten. Could be wrong though.

Those areas that weren't touched for a year or 10 is where the magic happened IMO.
I'd probably challenge the idea that the roaming herds "took it all down" though, in general. Yes, if they were "being run" by predators (including man), or even if they were just intentionally traversing an area as a herd as they migrated to a new region (you'll often see this in images, where they moved through "creating a trail", in a very dense mass, leaving the earth almost black at the center of that path, and we still see this today with wildebeast migrations, etc.)... then whatever vegetation was there underfoot would have been trampled into the dirt. Those kinds specific heavy traffic areas though would have been/are a pretty minimal part of the overall landscape, and are not relative to the grazed areas of the landscape... they're more like what we might have in a "cow lane" for example... This can't be compared to what we do today, with whole regions of our landscape being nothing but corn/beans for example.

But when these herds were GRAZING, they did this in the same way that cattle normally graze (they're ruminants... and even bovines, after all)... they'd move through, and keep right on moving forward... as long as they didn't run into a fence that would limit them and force them to have to turn back to "regraze" across the same area. As @Mark Reynolds stated........ THAT is the limiting factor in how we can manage our livestock and land area today... we CAN'T simply let them keep moving forward anymore... and I doubt that freedom will ever be a part of our world again in the future, short of some sort of huge disaster that "completely resets" the whole paradigm.
 

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