What happens on a feedlot?

[inyati13]

Excellent topic and a great post to begin it. mm, I ask you this question in a Private Message. I will state it again as your post immediately above this raises the issue of what the producer can do.

As a producer and a person who believes that higher life has intrinsic value; they are aware of their existence. Therefore, I adhere to a set of self-imposed standards for the preparation of my feeder calves. I do not concern myself with what other producers are doing other than participation in organizations like the Kentucky Cattleman Association which strives to improve the husbandry of cattle. I don't spend my time pondering the "rights and wrongs" that occur on this planet. But there are people who do and more power to them.

Above you stated, "The question is: what does the cow-calf producer need to do differently to move their calves from high risk to low risk?"

My question: Do the feedlots track the source of their livestock so they can reward those who are putting an effort into proper preparation. If I remember, you answered that question in a PM. Going a little further: I wean my calves, I convert them to high carbohydrate feed, I vaccinate them, I adapt them to direct human intervention, etc. I hope that results in less stress when they start the journey from my farm to the slaughter house. I hope my preparations provide them with a higher quality of life. I don't worry about the end of their life. Death is a tranquill state of non-existence. I want them to "enjoy" their state of existence.

Now my issue: The producers that have good protocols and prepare their products for the "feedlot" should get a reward in the form of higher prices. That does not happen here. My neighbor jerks his calves straight off the cow and ships them. He never puts a needle in a calf unless the vet comes to treat one that is sick. His calves sell for the same amount as mine do. So the average guy who does not prepare his calves in the proper manner has no incentive other than his personal values and standards.

 

[dun]

Now my issue: The producers that have good protocols and prepare their products for the "feedlot" should get a reward in the form of higher prices. That does not happen here. My neighbor jerks his calves straight off the cow and ships them. He never puts a needle in a calf unless the vet comes to treat one that is sick. His calves sell for the same amount as mine do. So the average guy who does not prepare his calves in the proper manner has no incentive other than his personal values and standards.

If there are preconditoned sales they usually pay more, or calves that are entered in one of the Pfizer vac programs and the proper documentation is provided generally bring more. That is in this area, not sure about any others. Iff your salebarns don;t support those types of sales either discuss it with them or find a salebarn that does.

 

[milkmaid]

Here's the thing Ron - go back and re-read the descriptions of high risk vs low risk calves.

Concept #1: When they're sold in groups of 15 at a sale barn where they'll be co-mingled with calves from ten other sources, the fact that they've had one set of vaccines prior to sale just makes them "high risk" as opposed to "ultra high risk."

Concept #2: Feedlots talk about the price spread between high risk and low risk cattle. When the market is low, there's a wide spread between the price paid for HR vs LR. They can lose HR calves, even 15% of them, and still make money on the group when the calves are cheap. Yes- the yard managers really do say they pay differently depending on the risk category of the cattle. Right now the market is high and there's not much of a spread. Buyers would prefer LR calves because it costs too much to lose the HR ones, but they buy anything available right now because they can't keep the yard full.

Concept #3: You may have discovered why some people prefer to retain ownership. If you're selling small groups of calves under 800 lbs at the sale, the only benefit you may ever see to preconditioning is your own sense of satisfaction. I've seen some organizations help compile small groups for producers so the guys who don't have enough cattle for a lot (usually 100-200 hd) can still retain ownership through the yard. There may be other options for you; as dun mentioned, with documentation that indicates they might have a lower morbidity after purchase, they can be worth more.

 

[highgrit]

It's the same all over Inyati my neighbors get good prices for cattle that haven't been vaccinated or weaned. But I'm going to keep wasting my time and money doing what I feel is right. We adhere to the BQA program and the auctioneer announced it before our calves were sold in the ring. But the difference in price wasn't worth the effort. I'm going to try and sell off the farm next time, we're proud of most of the calves we raise.

 

[Dave]

A few years back there was a group of unvaccinated calves selling on Superior. The bidding had stalled out. The owner must have been in the room because things came to a halt for a few seconds, you could hear talking in the background, and then the auctioneer announced that the calves would be vaccinated before shipping. The bidding took off and the calves brought an additional 20 cents. Superior ran that video for a while as a promotion on how vaccinated calves would bring more money.

 

[Brute 23]

Very informative. Thanks

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I once spent some time as a consultant for a feedlot of a family friend. Until he found someone who would authorize drugs without asking questions. Here are some things to ponder.

Economics drives how cattle are weaned, sorted, transported to feedyards, and fed.

Some argue that you do not have the right to make cattle sick for economics. Not sure the logic of subjecting them to stress or feed that will make them sick, then giving antibiotics for the purpose of "animal welfare".

Since ruminants are not designed for the high carbohydrate diets they are fed, do you see the industry backing off on how much grain is fed, or will they keep having to rely on antibiotics to prevent liver abscesses, etc?

Since stress of weaning, saleyards, shipping, and adapting to feedyards is the underlying cause of much sickness, do you see any big changes in how animals are handled, e.g. feeding at the ranch, or feeding locally? Or will we have to keep relying on antibiotics? I recall in an older version of the Merck Manual a veterinarian stating in regard to the stress in feedlot calves, "We shouldn't ask why any get sick, but we should ask why any of them live."

In other words, suppose that antibiotics were not available. What would feedlots have to do differently to reduce morbidity and mortality?

I have heard for years that anitibiotic use would be restricted or banned. For example, this veterinarty panel discussed liver abscesses in 2000, and possible antibiotic bans as exist in Europe. And how our industry accepts a 15% rate of liver abscesses based on economics.
http://feedlotmagazine.com/archive/arch ... ticle.html

I happened to see a Dr. Oz show a few days ago in which antibiotics in meat was discussed (not technically accurate), more a resistance problem than antibiotic residues. He posted a statement from the FDA about coming restrictions on antibiotic use. But I have my doubts considering billions of dollars at stake for the grain and drug industries.
http://www.doctoroz.com/page/fda-statem ... tance-meat

Like it or not, these issues aren't going away, especially in the information age.
http://www.doctoroz.com/episode/could-a ... g-you-sick

Hey dijinwa, don't forget to throw in about Black cattle with hot rectums, and e-coli.



:lol2: :roll: :deadhorse:

 

[boondocks]

Excellent topic and a great post to begin it. mm, I ask you this question in a Private Message. I will state it again as your post immediately above this raises the issue of what the producer can do.

As a producer and a person who believes that higher life has intrinsic value; they are aware of their existence. Therefore, I adhere to a set of self-imposed standards for the preparation of my feeder calves. I do not concern myself with what other producers are doing other than participation in organizations like the Kentucky Cattleman Association which strives to improve the husbandry of cattle. I don't spend my time pondering the "rights and wrongs" that occur on this planet. But there are people who do and more power to them.

Above you stated, "The question is: what does the cow-calf producer need to do differently to move their calves from high risk to low risk?"

My question: Do the feedlots track the source of their livestock so they can reward those who are putting an effort into proper preparation. If I remember, you answered that question in a PM. Going a little further: I wean my calves, I convert them to high carbohydrate feed, I vaccinate them, I adapt them to direct human intervention, etc. I hope that results in less stress when they start the journey from my farm to the slaughter house. I hope my preparations provide them with a higher quality of life. I don't worry about the end of their life. Death is a tranquill state of non-existence. I want them to "enjoy" their state of existence.

Now my issue: The producers that have good protocols and prepare their products for the "feedlot" should get a reward in the form of higher prices. That does not happen here. My neighbor jerks his calves straight off the cow and ships them. He never puts a needle in a calf unless the vet comes to treat one that is sick. His calves sell for the same amount as mine do. So the average guy who does not prepare his calves in the proper manner has no incentive other than his personal values and standards.

Do you have the option to sell directly? We are still growing our herd and won't be doing much selling for awhile but already get asked several times a month whether and when we will have anything for sale. When we do, the price will reflect that they are well-cared for, natural, grass-fed (yeah, and we'll still probably be in the hole). Anyone hoping our plan is to sell beef cheaper than the walmart down the street can just keep drivin'.
Do you have restauranteurs who would like a source of high-quality beef that they can advertise in their menu is locally-sourced, hand-petted ;-) etc?

 

[Tim/South]

We also wean and vaccinate. A major order buyer told me up front that he would not pay more for my calves.
He said that most people in our area did not know how to wean and the calves showed it. He said he had better success shipping milk fat calves weaned on a trailer than he did with underweight calves struggling to grow.
He said unless I had a load or half a load then he could not justify paying more. That is what his stockers wanted and was his job to buy for them.
He added that proper weaning, castration and vaccination was better for the calf, not arguing that point. Just that many selling a few head at a time did not have the knowledge, facilities or numbers to make it worth their time.
It was an interesting and educational conversation.
Having said that, there are some smaller order buyers that buy my calves and pay more. I am hoping they have had good results from my calves in the past. I want my calves to step off their trailer and begin making the stocker money.

 

[inyati13]

Here's the thing Ron - go back and re-read the descriptions of high risk vs low risk calves.

Concept #1: When they're sold in groups of 15 at a sale barn where they'll be co-mingled with calves from ten other sources, the fact that they've had one set of vaccines prior to sale just makes them "high risk" as opposed to "ultra high risk."

Concept #2: Feedlots talk about the price spread between high risk and low risk cattle. When the market is low, there's a wide spread between the price paid for HR vs LR. They can lose HR calves, even 15% of them, and still make money on the group when the calves are cheap. Yes- the yard managers really do say they pay differently depending on the risk category of the cattle. Right now the market is high and there's not much of a spread. Buyers would prefer LR calves because it costs too much to lose the HR ones, but they buy anything available right now because they can't keep the yard full.

Concept #3: You may have discovered why some people prefer to retain ownership. If you're selling small groups of calves under 800 lbs at the sale, the only benefit you may ever see to preconditioning is your own sense of satisfaction. I've seen some organizations help compile small groups for producers so the guys who don't have enough cattle for a lot (usually 100-200 hd) can still retain ownership through the yard. There may be other options for you; as dun mentioned, with documentation that indicates they might have a lower morbidity after purchase, they can be worth more.

Thanks, mm. I will go back and check that. I appreciate your effort to inform on this subject. Ron
Been watching a heifer that is at day 273 post AI. She is my last fall heifer. I got FCA "First Calf Anxiety". :lol:

 

[inyati13]

Excellent topic and a great post to begin it. mm, I ask you this question in a Private Message. I will state it again as your post immediately above this raises the issue of what the producer can do.

As a producer and a person who believes that higher life has intrinsic value; they are aware of their existence. Therefore, I adhere to a set of self-imposed standards for the preparation of my feeder calves. I do not concern myself with what other producers are doing other than participation in organizations like the Kentucky Cattleman Association which strives to improve the husbandry of cattle. I don't spend my time pondering the "rights and wrongs" that occur on this planet. But there are people who do and more power to them.

Above you stated, "The question is: what does the cow-calf producer need to do differently to move their calves from high risk to low risk?"

My question: Do the feedlots track the source of their livestock so they can reward those who are putting an effort into proper preparation. If I remember, you answered that question in a PM. Going a little further: I wean my calves, I convert them to high carbohydrate feed, I vaccinate them, I adapt them to direct human intervention, etc. I hope that results in less stress when they start the journey from my farm to the slaughter house. I hope my preparations provide them with a higher quality of life. I don't worry about the end of their life. Death is a tranquill state of non-existence. I want them to "enjoy" their state of existence.

Now my issue: The producers that have good protocols and prepare their products for the "feedlot" should get a reward in the form of higher prices. That does not happen here. My neighbor jerks his calves straight off the cow and ships them. He never puts a needle in a calf unless the vet comes to treat one that is sick. His calves sell for the same amount as mine do. So the average guy who does not prepare his calves in the proper manner has no incentive other than his personal values and standards.

Do you have the option to sell directly? We are still growing our herd and won't be doing much selling for awhile but already get asked several times a month whether and when we will have anything for sale. When we do, the price will reflect that they are well-cared for, natural, grass-fed (yeah, and we'll still probably be in the hole). Anyone hoping our plan is to sell beef cheaper than the walmart down the street can just keep drivin'.
Do you have restauranteurs who would like a source of high-quality beef that they can advertise in their menu is locally-sourced, hand-petted ;-) etc?

I need to check that. :lol: :lol: :lol: :banana:

 

[inyati13]

Here's the thing Ron - go back and re-read the descriptions of high risk vs low risk calves.

Concept #1: When they're sold in groups of 15 at a sale barn where they'll be co-mingled with calves from ten other sources, the fact that they've had one set of vaccines prior to sale just makes them "high risk" as opposed to "ultra high risk."

Concept #2: Feedlots talk about the price spread between high risk and low risk cattle. When the market is low, there's a wide spread between the price paid for HR vs LR. They can lose HR calves, even 15% of them, and still make money on the group when the calves are cheap. Yes- the yard managers really do say they pay differently depending on the risk category of the cattle. Right now the market is high and there's not much of a spread. Buyers would prefer LR calves because it costs too much to lose the HR ones, but they buy anything available right now because they can't keep the yard full.

Concept #3: You may have discovered why some people prefer to retain ownership. If you're selling small groups of calves under 800 lbs at the sale, the only benefit you may ever see to preconditioning is your own sense of satisfaction. I've seen some organizations help compile small groups for producers so the guys who don't have enough cattle for a lot (usually 100-200 hd) can still retain ownership through the yard. There may be other options for you; as dun mentioned, with documentation that indicates they might have a lower morbidity after purchase, they can be worth more.

mm, so my calves are High Risk rather than Ultra High Risk. Our UK Extension Agent has proposed the concept underlined above to the members of the County Ky Cattle Association. Our agent resides in an adjoining county where such a plan is followed. In regard to what dun sugggested, I have mentioned this issue to the man who hauls my cattle. Mike Gifford was a buyer for a company at the Flemingsburg Stockyards for many years. He told me I will not get any consideration of the protocols I follow to prepare my calves. I have not researched the other stockyards but I will discuss dun's suggestion with our County Agent.

If I might make a suggestion. Milkmaid, please start a new thread outlining a step by step set of protocols a producer in my circumstances (as highgrit mentioned, those circumstances fit most of us) should follow to prepare calves for success in a feedlot environment. On the subject of feed, what should it be? I have discussed my feed which is called "Beef Mix" with TexasBred and Fire Sweep Simmentals and the reaction I get is that it is not much more than high quality hay. It is a cruched corn (including whole kernals), alfalfa pellets and some other ingredients. It may not be on the same level as the feeds my calves are going to be consuming at the feedlot. Also, what vaccinations should these calves have? And are they assumed to be unvaccinated and thus revaccinated anyway which means I wonder if my suite of vaccination is too broad and should be narrowed down???

I guess for me it comes down to "personal satisfaction". The focus then is: What should be my protocols?

 

[Karin]

Some of you mentioned about retained ownership of cow-calf producers being, instead, cow-yearling producers. But what about backgrounding? What percentage of feedlots background cattle of their own or for other producers, and what percentage of feedlots get cattle from backgrounding operations? Reason I ask is because you mentioned how, "calves from 300-900 [pounds] are fed out to slaughter weights (1300-1500 [pounds]) over a period of 120-360 days. Most come in about 700 [pounds] and are fed about 150 days." Since most of the calves that come in usually are of continental/british or british-bred base, they'd have to be on a forage ration for the first 8 to 12 months before being finished for the last three. Otherwise the feedlot would run into problems with complaints from the meat-packer guys with the amount of external fat that needs to be trimmed off from cattle that have been over-conditioned too young and too quickly. At least I would think the feedlot would hear something of that. For Angus-crosses in the states, that's a problem that always needs to be dealt with. For continentals, it's not that big of a deal, though it does help.

I should also mention that a lot of Canadian feedlots also feed barley. I think there are a fair few that are also into corn, but barley still, as far as I'm aware, is still the main grain for finishing cattle on.

Otherwise it's a well-written post, MM.

I also have to say this: Folks who hear about feedlots and cattle also automatically think about the deficits in water, parrot outdated the amount of grain to get a pound of beef (I hear lots about how it's 16 pounds of grain to get one pound of beef, I know that's wrong because the Beef Cattle Research Council recently stated the amount to feed to get a pound of beef is less than half that--now I think it's around 6 to 8 pounds), land use, greenhouse gas emissions, etc. And all that, too, is in vehement opposition to "Big-Ag."

 

[talltimber]

I knife cut, worm, two-round vacc., wean and would prefer to have them at least two weeks after weaning. I kept my first group of calves (not counting two heifers who went to their 4-H show owners early) for about a month. They were fleshy, but I learned something, so I may keep them longer this time. "Growing frame" is sometimes very close to making them go hungry, looks to me like.
I take a lot of pride in my calves as well, and want to do as right by them as I can. Short of retaining ownership, which I'm not set up or able to do right now, I have no control over their surroundings after they leave me. I can try to get them a headstart on the bug infested **** storms they are likely to encounter though, and that's what I'm willing to keep doing. I am getting paid a little to do it, which makes it easier to do. I sell off the farm to a backgrounder in this area. He retains ownership and I have heard some of the packer info he has gotten back. He's making money. Sometimes lots of money.
He buys as many of the same type of cattle like that as he can - vaccinations, wormed, cut, weaned a period of time, bunk broke with being fed a "little", broke to waterers, 4 wheelers, chutes/alleys (my calves start out being hand fed and to get back to their momma they have to trail through the barn, chute, and out the headcatch. I like spending time with them, and actually care about them, so maybe it shows in the condition of them.
Maybe, inyati, you could find a backgrounder that would appreciate your calves a little more?
I sent a PM. I may be able to help, depending.

 

[Karin]

Hey MM, I got a new question for you:

If a feedlot gets a calver that delivers a calf, what happens to the pair? Does the calf end up euthanized, or the pair sold, or what?

Curious! Thanks.

 

[Dave]

Hey MM, I got a new question for you:

If a feedlot gets a calver that delivers a calf, what happens to the pair? Does the calf end up euthanized, or the pair sold, or what?

Curious! Thanks.

The feedlots that I have worked at and been around the pen riders and other hired help take them home as day olds and bottle raise them. The heifer just stays on feed.

 

[Karin]

Thanks for that Dave.

 

[CKC1586]

Thanks a bunch for the great information. I am sure many of us will be sharing it. Hope you don't mind. Always appreciate your viewpoint.

 

[hillbilly beef man]

Thanks for the great post. Question though, if being bunk broke, weaned, and vac. Helps the bottom line of the feed lots so much, why won't they pay more for calves that are? Here there is a contract buyer that gives a 5 cent premium for weaned and vaccinated calves, but it is hardley worth the effort for a nickel. I would be willing to do this if it was worthwhile.

 

[milkmaid]

Hey MM, I got a new question for you:

If a feedlot gets a calver that delivers a calf, what happens to the pair? Does the calf end up euthanized, or the pair sold, or what?

Curious! Thanks.

Hi Karin, didn't see your post until now.

Depends on the feedlot. Yards that take in cattle from certain states (e.g. ID, MT, WY in brucellosis positive areas) are considered quarantine yards. Cattle that enter cannot leave except to slaughter. Other states - e.g. KS - don't have quarantine yards and calves can leave.

On a quarantine yard the calf is either euthanized or raised on the yard as a bottle calf. Sometimes they do leave with employees, with or without management's awareness - but it's not legal as I understand it. On non-quarantine yards the calves are typically sold/given to one of the employees.

You all are welcome to share the post in its entirety with credit given. Glad it's been helpful.