Using old semen can be fun but.....
- Thread starter Redgully
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Stocker Steve
Well-known member
They don't make um like they used to...
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Thats a disappointment. I think you might get better feet here from a 30 year old bull than many of the current bulls in some breeds. I think it is a result of forgetting the basics in genetics. Very important to produce cows that can produce a live calf every year and get up and get around to the forage and the water and last many years in the herd. Many people focus on their goals of extreme growth, or calving ease or carcass traits, etc. All important, but structure, feet, fertility, and longevity are basic necessities for the cow herd.
Then there is the discussion as to how much that is genetics vs nutrition/environment. Disappointing regardless.
Then there is the discussion as to how much that is genetics vs nutrition/environment. Disappointing regardless.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
Darn. I was all excited about the title. I bought a Woodhill Foresight son this spring. Thats twenty-year-old semen. He looks better than the newer genetics out there.
Redgully
Well-known member
I do think a few breeds have worse feet as a result of chasing numbers. This is a red poll cow, talking to the old guys they reckon feet have improved a lot in the last 30 years. Now they just have to work on udders! I just breed calves for the freezer out of this cow as she is very fertile, probably be culled this year though.
J+ Cattle
Well-known member
I hope you trashed the rest of the old semen from that sire, or used it for terminal calves, since we don't eat the feet.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Calf with bad hooves is the result of 2 parents: old bull and "new cow". Both contributed to the problem.
Ky hills
Well-known member
I've never had any Foresight genetics, but did hear a Angus man say that they were good cattle as long as their feet were big enough. I took it that he meant if the feet were big enough around to support the animal.
SBMF 2015
Well-known member
Foresight made great highly maternal, easy going, feminine daughters. I've never seen any foot problems, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there.
This bull is going to go with 4or5 of my best Angus cows and my first calf heifers this summer. Hopefully I get some good replacements.
wbvs58
Well-known member
Those feet look more like the result of laminitis to me Red.
Ken
Ken
Redgully
Well-known member
Interesting observation. Could well be because she had great feet as a hiefer. She hasn't any other symptoms though, never been lame.
Redgully
Well-known member
The dam had great feet, good heel depth and nice big feet. Could this mean she had recessive genetics of poor feet?
wbvs58
Well-known member
Red, I had a couple of late pregnant heifers go like that a few years ago grazing some tetraploid rye in spring. They never went lame with it just very ugly turkish slipper like feet. They did eventually grow them out.
Ken
wbvs58
Well-known member
Just thinking back Red, I think they were grazing it over winter, they were in pretty good nick and probably should just have been on the frosted grass, I think the rye was a bit too much for them. no other cows were affected as they had their calves weaned back in autumn and were needing a bit of weight to go on.
Ken
Redgully
Well-known member
Although not on grain my cattle do have a pretty good paddock of feed and not much rough ground to walk on, but she's the only one who's done this. I may squeeze one more calf out of her and see if anything changes. Her last calf tastes excellent so earning her keep at this point.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Sure it can. In the modern era, there is a constant outcross effort within the breed to avoid problems. So a lot of animals with low %IBC can carry problems but it will never get exposed as often. That is the beauty of using some linebreeding as bad traits can be eliminated easier than in the "modern way".
Ability to handle improved or better feed is also an issue in feet. If the old type were developed to survive on less then that could be the issue. I know that there was a widely used Angus bull in the 90s or so and his offspring did well but you could not feed them heavily without seeing foot issues. I asked the owners one time and they went ballistic. Apparently semen buyers were supposed to know but not tell like good little peons!
Redgully
Well-known member
Thank you for a thorough reply. Good insight.
I too have learnt my lesson asking the breeder of a bull about a possible issue, got a dressing down. But i was right.
Nkline
Well-known member
I think it looks like founder also, which is more of a management issue imho. Some of the old genetics I have used founder more easily, but also are easier fleshing, and breed back better. Some of the old angus genetics I have used have thrown as good of feet as anything. Old genetics seem to have more character, people used to linebreed more and the animals would start to take the ideal type of that breeders vision. Many breeders now seem to lack vision....
What are some examples of a breed plan or breeder vision?
I've got a heifer that calved unassisted and is overly protective. Look at her cross-eyed and see will ram the gate. I may keep her long enough to wean the calf, but not planning to keep her around long. Maybe sooner than later... I fed the calf colostrum after being born and I have yet to see the calf nurse. The calf doesn't bawl, so I just keep checking. My desire is to raise cattle that do not scream and try to kill me - is that a breed plan?
It depends on your priority. Cows that don't become a bit defensive when the have a calf don't stay around here very long.
I expect my cows to defend and take care of their calves. Mother ability is a trait that Is fairly high on my list. If the cow doesn't successfully raise a calf to weaning it is a issue.
I expect my cows to defend and take care of their calves. Mother ability is a trait that Is fairly high on my list. If the cow doesn't successfully raise a calf to weaning it is a issue.
