Something is Brewing

[dbird33]

One reason I bred her to Elation is because of the longevity in the pedigree of Elation's kin folk.

Breed her to 878.

Good suggestion.

Her grandsire is B/R New Design 323

I was kidding for the most part. I know 878 doesn't have the power a lot of people want these days, but he had longevity and was a prolific producer for the stud. I have thought about getting a cane or two to come back to down the line. Always heard he was a good female producer.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Breed her to 878.

Good suggestion.

Her grandsire is B/R New Design 323

I was kidding for the most part. I know 878 doesn't have the power a lot of people want these days, but he had longevity and was a prolific producer for the stud. I have thought about getting a cane or two to come back to down the line. Always heard he was a good female producer.

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

 

[Ebenezer]

It would be interesting to know what traits in female bovines is specifically tied to the twin XX sex chromosomes. The bull is XY, so the sex-linked traits that are unique to the bull are on that Y chromosome which does not exist in cows.

Trivia: in birds the sex chromosomes are designated as Z and W. But here is the real interesting part. In mammals, the Female is homomorphic XX (don't confuse with Homozygous) and the Male is heteromorphic, XY. In birds, the Male is homomorphic ZZ and the female is heteromorphic ZW.

Plus mitochondrial DNA only comes from the dam.

 

[Ebenezer]

Good suggestion.

Her grandsire is B/R New Design 323

I was kidding for the most part. I know 878 doesn't have the power a lot of people want these days, but he had longevity and was a prolific producer for the stud. I have thought about getting a cane or two to come back to down the line. Always heard he was a good female producer.

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

Yon mention screw toe a lot. Is that a problem there?

 

[Bright Raven]

It would be interesting to know what traits in female bovines is specifically tied to the twin XX sex chromosomes. The bull is XY, so the sex-linked traits that are unique to the bull are on that Y chromosome which does not exist in cows.

Trivia: in birds the sex chromosomes are designated as Z and W. But here is the real interesting part. In mammals, the Female is homomorphic XX (don't confuse with Homozygous) and the Male is heteromorphic, XY. In birds, the Male is homomorphic ZZ and the female is heteromorphic ZW.

Plus mitochondrial DNA only comes from the dam.

Yes sir.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I was kidding for the most part. I know 878 doesn't have the power a lot of people want these days, but he had longevity and was a prolific producer for the stud. I have thought about getting a cane or two to come back to down the line. Always heard he was a good female producer.

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

Yon mention screw toe a lot. Is that a problem there?

Yes, and by keeping cows into the teens you can see who has feet that will pass the test of time.

While I value growth, and several other traits, Feet are at the top of the list. If you have a cow with bad feet, that's a big problem. Trimming is not the solution either.

I won't mention any producers by name, but I assure you that I have seen some gnarly feet on cows 4-5 years old that were registered.

As you know, Kentucky's terrain is pretty rough on my side of the state, so substandard feet are not an option.

 

[Bright Raven]

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

Yon mention screw toe a lot. Is that a problem there?

Yes, and by keeping cows into the teens you can see who has feet that will pass the test of time.

While I value growth, and several other traits, Feet are at the top of the list. If you have a cow with bad feet, that's a big problem. Trimming is not the solution either.

I won't mention any producers by name, but I assure you that I have seen some gnarly feet on cows 4-5 years old that were registered.

As you know, Kentucky's terrain is pretty rough on my side of the state, so substandard feet are not an option.

I will second that motion. If you want a strong chain, each link must bear the load placed on it, none are more essential in Kentucky than feet and I suspect that extends to many other places.

 

[CattleMan1920]

In fact Ebenezer, I have gone so far as to contact a leading genetic research facility that uses CRISPR to see if the gene can be isolated, and clipped from the DNA, then produce a female, and the rest is history.

They said it could be done, but not implemented on a mass scale. You would have a genetically modified Angus, but at least you would be rid of the screw claw gene for good. This could be a very good thing for commercial operators that deal with this in their herds.

You would need an animal with bad screw claw, and one that does not have it, both ideally 15 years of age or older. Plenty of time for the feet to run their course.

It's only a matter of time before someone does this and makes a bundle off of it. For now, I will stick to breeding to sires like President and Hoover Dam to keep that foot quality high. There are obviously other sires that can do this as well, but I feel confident about these two in particular.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Good suggestion.

Her grandsire is B/R New Design 323

I was kidding for the most part. I know 878 doesn't have the power a lot of people want these days, but he had longevity and was a prolific producer for the stud. I have thought about getting a cane or two to come back to down the line. Always heard he was a good female producer.

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

She's a little old now but you could still flushed her a few times. You could even used sexed semen and really make a bunch similar to her. That's the way to make head way, hoping for a heifer calf every year isn't very productive.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I was kidding for the most part. I know 878 doesn't have the power a lot of people want these days, but he had longevity and was a prolific producer for the stud. I have thought about getting a cane or two to come back to down the line. Always heard he was a good female producer.

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

She's a little old now but you could still flushed her a few times. You could even used sexed semen and really make a bunch similar to her. That's the way to make head way, hoping for a heifer calf every year isn't very productive.

I agree with you.

We may do that. I used sexed semen on her last year and have a Raindance daughter right now.

I had planned on taking her to Multigen by year end.

 

[WalnutCrest]

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

She's a little old now but you could still flushed her a few times. You could even used sexed semen and really make a bunch similar to her. That's the way to make head way, hoping for a heifer calf every year isn't very productive.

I agree with you.

We may do that. I used sexed semen on her last year and have a Raindance daughter right now.

I had planned on taking her to Multigen by year end.

Forget making a daughter.

Make several sons, keep the best, and breed everyone to him.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I can get the power into the animal, that's not the issue. Getting longevity and good feet, along with fertility. That's a bit more work.

I'm open to any suggestions that I don't know about.

There are a lot of Simmy bulls to pick from with really good foot and bone structure. Put some real bone on those angus. ;-)

 

[Mossy Dell]

His CEM stinks, 85th percentile. So he doesn't have it all, from a maternal standpoint. And his YW is only +43. I want growth up to +75 before I start worrying at all about cows getting too large.

I find it very interesting that you say that.

RIght now, I'm working on getting 5 bulls that I can send out to the Midland test in the near future. All will be SAV genetics. Instead of folklore that they will "fall apart" or cannot make it, we will see for sure. I'm not too proud to say "I'm was wrong" if those bulls fall on their face, and don't make the cut, but what if they do kick azz? What if they truly perform? Will you eat your words? Probably not, real-world data from Midland could not even change your mind.

What If I send 5 International sons out there and they perform, and perform well.

Just so you know, and I have said it before, SAV is only a portion of what we breed to. There are at least two bulls from Hoover Angus that I am quite fond of as well.

Who knows, they might fail miserably, if so, I will probably reconsider what I breed to, but if they shine bright, what then?

As for Herefords, I have NOTHING against them, and I think they have a lot of merit for beef. I happen to like Angus better because I like data, and Angus rules on data, and branding of course. Boyd's which is about 10 miles from me is having a sale in a few days, and there will be Hereford in that sale, super nice ones at that. My question for you, if you are familiar with Boyd's, would they have been as successful as they are if they had not moved to Angus many years back? Do you think that if they had stuck with Herefords, from a purely financial standpoint, would they have the haul that they get from Angus? I seriously doubt they would even come close. They made a fortune moving to Angus.

Also, we had some really nice Hereford cattle on our farm before we decided to go with Angus in 1967.

You ask questions that have absolutely nothing to do with any topic whatsoever. I like Boyd a lot, especially back to New Day. For those of you who thought the angus industry started with SAV, New Day's sire New Trend had a major impact on the breed and his dam was the prototypical dam of her time. Do you really have that big of a comprehension issue or simply like to see your own words? No one said anything about the breed coming to an end and as for your test, once again that doesn't tell us those bulls are range or herd worthy, just means they do well in a feed lot, which we already know they do, from how SAV raises them. Your analogy is horrible, here's what your trying to present, to prove SAV bulls are range worthy, I'm going to confine five of them to a feed bunk and prove through excess feed and high nutrition, these bulls can perform in a herd or on range. So if your bulls do perform amazingly well, cut the nuts off the next set, so you can have amazing feed lot steers. But if you are raising herd bulls, raise herd bulls. Quit chasing rabbit holes and writing to yourself, no one said anything about Herefords, except a trend they are seeing commercially. I try to give you a pass, but sometimes you don't know when to quit.

Have you seen some of my non SAV bulls? My bulls from the Apex Kingston son or Crook Mt. Black Cedar?

They have what you seem to like, high CED, HP, CEM, DMI and $EN, but no $B

The type you forget about all winter because they need nothing.

Problem is they never put on serious pounds. I know YOU know what I'm talking about.

If your goal is just to have cattle that survive the range but perform nothing else, then why not consider this bull that I have available at the moment? He is a low maintenance dream.

http://bit.ly/2tTvzRy

His BW, DMI, $EN, HP, and scrotal have to interest you. If those traits are all that matters.

 

[CattleMan1920]

His CEM stinks, 85th percentile. So he doesn't have it all, from a maternal standpoint. And his YW is only +43. I want growth up to +75 before I start worrying at all about cows getting too large.

People sure do worry about CEM. Makes me wonder how many difficult births their herds suffer each year?

We rarely pull a calf, not saying it never happens, but it's not a common occurrence.

His dam was 1900 pounds. His sire is 2500. He will be a big boy when he is all grown up.

 

[Bright Raven]

I want to reiterate that the reason my husband and I started buying PB's was for good females. We did want, what the association could provide us. We found EPD's invaluable and can get that thru a registered herd.

You can create good cattle from the use of AI sires but you can't obtain great females from poor mommas without years of effort. Anyone can get a sires genetics. Not everyone can obtain good females.

If I have great females, I can breed whatever I want to them.

I see flaws in my cows but I know that the rewards I have enjoyed which is my lovely calves has largely been gifted to me because I have a decent bunch of cows. That is not to say that one can ignore the bull, but those girls out there are the ones that get my appreciation.

The best way for me to move forward is to keep improving my cows and finding proven bulls that give me consistency and compliment the cows traits.

There is a measure of criticism of EPDs on this forum, I notice that you stated that you and your husband have found them invaluable. You raise Angus, would you comment on the value of EPDs specifically to your objectives? Do you have any comment of the data quality problems at AAA?

 

[NEFarmwife]

I want to reiterate that the reason my husband and I started buying PB's was for good females. We did want, what the association could provide us. We found EPD's invaluable and can get that thru a registered herd.

You can create good cattle from the use of AI sires but you can't obtain great females from poor mommas without years of effort. Anyone can get a sires genetics. Not everyone can obtain good females.

If I have great females, I can breed whatever I want to them.

There is a measure of criticism of EPDs on this forum, I notice that you stated that you and your husband have found them invaluable. You raise Angus, would you comment on the value of EPDs specifically to your objectives? Do you have any comment of the data quality problems at AAA?

I've attended a few engagements that has had a speaker from the Association and I find that I learn something every time, where I may have been mis-informed prior or understood it differently and I find that many of the seedstocks are as well.

The Association says if you want a maternal, you focus on WW, udders, and feet. Yet feet are just now being brought to us consumers and udders aren't scored at all in the association.

I think BW needs to be an average weight. Not scoring. Let CED be scored. Give me actuals and let me decide if 90lbs is too big for my heifers. I don't want just the sires actuals, I want the progeny.

The biggest flaw in the EPD's are the people who report their data. It humors me to see prior progeny from a donor always throw 70lbs calves but when we start calving her calves, she's 80-85lbs. Same season, same region. These were all embryos. I.E. If we throw a 98lbs Acclaim son, he's 98lbs. I feel anything that has to be reported by the customer isn't as reliable and I take it all with a grain of salt.

The value I find in the data is mostly in carcass. Through our finishing, I have found that data to be the most reliable and accurate. I am not sending my PB's (except some we cull) to the slaughter house but we do AI ALL our cattle and keep extensive records. I know enough to chase those numbers and feel confident in them. Even when they weight CW to $B differently, those CW, Marb, RE, Fat are all still going to be highly accurate.

When it comes to our PB, the females we're improving... we're looking (Speaking strictly on EPD's) at WW, EN (does NOT have to be positive, I just don't want -40), and still trying to balance some carcass. Balance though, nothing extreme.

Even with the reliability issues on user reported info, I feel as long as you use a more proven bull, you'll get what you were hoping for. I won't use anything that doesn't have something I've heard of.

I.E. I know Styles Upgrade makes really good females and I can say for certain that his full brother does also. We've used him extensively in our commercial herd and they're both more of a straight down the middle on all EPDs. I'd tend to move that direction or look for Upgrade in genetic lines.

The other day, I remarked that my new bull has 20 traits in the top 25% and while I can market the crap out of that... not ALL EPD's in the top 25% are favorable and I think that is where there is a lot of misunderstanding. But his carcass data is phenomenal and he tends to favor his grandsire (sydgen fate) which has me betting that he has some potent DNA. He's a "Kennedy".

All over the place here...I keep getting interrupted.

 

[Bright Raven]

I want to reiterate that the reason my husband and I started buying PB's was for good females. We did want, what the association could provide us. We found EPD's invaluable and can get that thru a registered herd.

You can create good cattle from the use of AI sires but you can't obtain great females from poor mommas without years of effort. Anyone can get a sires genetics. Not everyone can obtain good females.

If I have great females, I can breed whatever I want to them.

There is a measure of criticism of EPDs on this forum, I notice that you stated that you and your husband have found them invaluable. You raise Angus, would you comment on the value of EPDs specifically to your objectives? Do you have any comment of the data quality problems at AAA?

I've attended a few engagements that has had a speaker from the Association and I find that I learn something every time, where I may have been mis-informed prior or understood it differently and I find that many of the seedstocks are as well.

The Association says if you want a maternal, you focus on WW, udders, and feet. Yet feet are just now being brought to us consumers and udders aren't scored at all in the association.

I think BW needs to be an average weight. Not scoring. Let CED be scored. Give me actuals and let me decide if 90lbs is too big for my heifers. I don't want just the sires actuals, I want the progeny.

The biggest flaw in the EPD's are the people who report their data. It humors me to see prior progeny from a donor always throw 70lbs calves but when we start calving her calves, she's 80-85lbs. Same season, same region. These were all embryos. I.E. If we throw a 98lbs Acclaim son, he's 98lbs. I feel anything that has to be reported by the customer isn't as reliable and I take it all with a grain of salt.

The value I find in the data is mostly in carcass. Through our finishing, I have found that data to be the most reliable and accurate. I am not sending my PB's (except some we cull) to the slaughter house but we do AI ALL our cattle and keep extensive records. I know enough to chase those numbers and feel confident in them. Even when they weight CW to $B differently, those CW, Marb, RE, Fat are all still going to be highly accurate.

When it comes to our PB, the females we're improving... we're looking (Speaking strictly on EPD's) at WW, EN (does NOT have to be positive, I just don't want -40), and still trying to balance some carcass. Balance though, nothing extreme.

Even with the reliability issues on user reported info, I feel as long as you use a more proven bull, you'll get what you were hoping for. I won't use anything that doesn't have something I've heard of.

I.E. I know Styles Upgrade makes really good females and I can say for certain that his full brother does also. We've used him extensively in our commercial herd and they're both more of a straight down the middle on all EPDs. I'd tend to move that direction or look for Upgrade in genetic lines.

The other day, I remarked that my new bull has 20 traits in the top 25% and while I can market the crap out of that... not ALL EPD's in the top 25% are favorable and I think that is where there is a lot of misunderstanding. But his carcass data is phenomenal and he tends to favor his grandsire (sydgen fate) which has me betting that he has some potent DNA. He's a "Kennedy".

All over the place here...I keep getting interrupted.

Reporting inaccuracies (cheating) is impossible for breed associations to police nor should they be put in the position of being an enforcement association. The associations are to serve the breed members. I don't see it ever being more than an honor system.

In time, there will be more correlation between genomics and EPDs. No one can stop progress. The science will come. In regard to the honesty, that is a much bigger fish to fry.

I hope this discussion has legs. Thanks for fleshing it out.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I do know some will disagree with me but I will also reiterate as I have in the past that if you are simply looking at Weaning because you sell at weaning, you are missing a premium from your buyers if you aren't also looking at carcass. If you produce cattle that are consistently making top dollar with your buyer who feeds and sells on grid, he's going to pay more for those calves every year. You'll make your own premium without having to feed them out yourself.

My nutritionist went to a week long tour of several slaughter facilities. She said it was highly informative and thought it would be beneficial for us to see our cattle to the end. She came back and asked us to change up the way we feed in a small test group. This has been difficult to stick with because it cut our feed in nearly half for this group and she told us we'd see a change in shape but to trust her. I won't know those results till end of April but I am intrigued. If the results are favorable, the savings in feed could be astronomical. If the results aren't favorable, she better buy me a fancy beer and bake me a pie.

 

[Bright Raven]

I do know some will disagree with me but I will also reiterate as I have in the past that if you are simply looking at Weaning because you sell at weaning, you are missing a premium from your buyers if you aren't also looking at carcass. If you produce cattle that are consistently making top dollar with your buyer who feeds and sells on grid, he's going to pay more for those calves every year. You'll make your own premium without having to feed them out yourself.

My nutritionist went to a week long tour of several slaughter facilities. She said it was highly informative and thought it would be beneficial for us to see our cattle to the end. She came back and asked us to change up the way we feed in a small test group. This has been difficult to stick with because it cut our feed in nearly half for this group and she told us we'd see a change in shape but to trust her. I won't know those results till end of April but I am intrigued. If the results are favorable, the savings in feed could be astronomical. If the results aren't favorable, she better buy me a fancy beer and bake me a pie.

Thanks for that. Does beer and pie go together? :?

 

[NEFarmwife]

But that is the thing Bright Raven... the honor system isn't honorable because of greed. BW has been beaten into or embedded in us all that is the way to choose your sire. The "key" ingredient, so to speak. There isn't a whole lot of honesty when it comes to greed. I.E. Bad feet.

My list of places I will buy anything from is getting a lot shorter. After work, I am actually driving 3 hours one way to go look at a few females that'll sell on Friday. I shouldn't have to do that, where I am located.