Red angus or red baldie heifers?

[fnfarms1]

Awhile back I posted asking about selling off and replacing with top quality red angus herd. Ended up buying 12 bred red angus/red baldies, kind of happy medium between risking it all and moving a diffferent direction. That's the back story if you missed it.
So a good friend of mine has offered to sell me 1-50 heifers at good price. He's always had red angus from a high end herd in Kansas using red angus bulls. Calves are outstanding, really like them. This last year he decided to sell the red angus bull and swap out to Hereford bulls to get red baldies which I do like a lot too. I am really trying to work out the finances to buy all I can of these red angus because it's the last of them. How ever I really like the calves I get out of the reds and red baldies I currently have. I get the same deal in fall of the Hereford sired calves. Short term plans are to use my black simangus bulls on these replacements to get those premiums on black hides. Long term I'm undecided on herd sires, red angus or Hereford to raise my own replacements or stay black and buy the heifers. That part we will see. Thoughts?

 

[Brute 23]

Hard to say from here what is the "best" route but I will say it sounds like a good position to be in. Don't think you can go wrong with any of it.

If you have the option to buy good red and red baldies from your friend that is pretty hard to beat.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

For a commercial herd the benefits of cross breeding are too great to ignore. I have had the idea to do a three breed maternal rotation cross using Hereford, Red Angus and Beefmaster AI, then cleaning up with a terminal continental bull. I would sort the cows based on phenotype to ensure that each mating is a fresh cross. All solid faced cows would be bred Hereford because a Hereford can't sire a solid faced cow. If a white faced female is horned or shows ear she would be bred red angus. The polled red baldies would be bred Beefmaster.

 

[BFE]

For a commercial herd the benefits of cross breeding are too great to ignore. I have had the idea to do a three breed maternal rotation cross using Hereford, Red Angus and Beefmaster AI, then cleaning up with a terminal continental bull. I would sort the cows based on phenotype to ensure that each mating is a fresh cross. All solid faced cows would be bred Hereford because a Hereford can't sire a solid faced cow. If a white faced female is horned or shows ear she would be bred red angus. The polled red baldies would be bred Beefmaster.

Sounds like a well thought out plan.

I bought a group of Herefords years ago. The old man had kept them pure bred his entire life. One of the cows had two solid black calves in a row out of Simmental bulls. I always wondered what was up with that.

 

[fnfarms1]

For a commercial herd the benefits of cross breeding are too great to ignore. I have had the idea to do a three breed maternal rotation cross using Hereford, Red Angus and Beefmaster AI, then cleaning up with a terminal continental bull. I would sort the cows based on phenotype to ensure that each mating is a fresh cross. All solid faced cows would be bred Hereford because a Hereford can't sire a solid faced cow. If a white faced female is horned or shows ear she would be bred red angus. The polled red baldies would be bred Beefmaster.

Can't say I'm a beefmaster guy but I can see their appeal. Also I need a "one size fits all" bull. I don't have a large enough spread to run different pastures. I use 2 bulls to tighten calving and insurance hopefully against injury. I realize there's little guarantees on the 2 bull idea. My idea is to keep buying heifers from this guy as long as I can, he's an older guy who's had a stroke. His son who I am better friends with, will likely take over the herd but doubt I get as good of deals. Once I can't buy the heifers I'll find a red angus bull to run with a black simmi, run red angus first 2wks to make replacements. Turn out black simmi to get good terminals

 

[Davemk]

Awhile back I posted asking about selling off and replacing with top quality red angus herd. Ended up buying 12 bred red angus/red baldies, kind of happy medium between risking it all and moving a diffferent direction. That's the back story if you missed it.
So a good friend of mine has offered to sell me 1-50 heifers at good price. He's always had red angus from a high end herd in Kansas using red angus bulls. Calves are outstanding, really like them. This last year he decided to sell the red angus bull and swap out to Hereford bulls to get red baldies which I do like a lot too. I am really trying to work out the finances to buy all I can of these red angus because it's the last of them. How ever I really like the calves I get out of the reds and red baldies I currently have. I get the same deal in fall of the Hereford sired calves. Short term plans are to use my black simangus bulls on these replacements to get those premiums on black hides. Long term I'm undecided on herd sires, red angus or Hereford to raise my own replacements or stay black and buy the heifers. That part we will see. Thoughts?

Buy as many of the Hereford x Red Angus as you can afford. Then breed them to a homozygous black bull. Ring the

 

[SBMF 2015]

Pretty hard to beat a red neck baldie. But make sure they have pigment over their eyes.

 

[fnfarms1]

Buy as many of the Hereford x Red Angus as you can afford. Then breed them to a homozygous black bull. Ring the

So the HerefordXRed Angus would be the better option? Is it the 3way cross? Been trying to scrape what I can together to try to buy the straight red angus late May/june. The Herefords won't be ready until Oct/nov which gives me more time and be selling my own calves then

 

[Davemk]

So the HerefordXRed Angus would be the better option? Is it the 3way cross? Been trying to scrape what I can together to try to buy the straight red angus late May/june. The Herefords won't be ready until Oct/nov which gives me more time and be selling my own calves then

Yes, heterosis is maximized in a three way cross. I would just make sure to use a bull that will throw black calves. I would also say there is nothing wrong with straight bred red angus cows.

 

[Warren Allison]

So the HerefordXRed Angus would be the better option? Is it the 3way cross? Been trying to scrape what I can together to try to buy the straight red angus late May/june. The Herefords won't be ready until Oct/nov which gives me more time and be selling my own calves then

Watch this video on heterosis in beef cattle by the Univ of Iowa. At about 11:20, they put up a chart, and he explains it well, that shows what breeds have a lot of DNA in commom ( all Continentals do) . Hereford and Angus are further apart than any other bos taurus breeds. That cross yields maximum heterosis. When you cross a half and half animal again, and use a third breed for terminal cross, this is the 2nd highest heterosis you can get. @Davemk suggested you use a homo for black bull to get black calves. A black Simm would be an ideal terminal bull to use. If you don't care about black calves (And I assume you don't, or you'd use a Herf x Angus black baldie) then any color Simm would be the best bull to use. Or a red Charolais.

 

[Davemk]

Watch this video on heterosis in beef cattle by the Univ of Iowa. At about 11:20, they put up a chart, and he explains it well, that shows what breeds have a lot of DNA in commom ( all Continentals do) . Hereford and Angus are further apart than any other bos taurus breeds. That cross yields maximum heterosis. When you cross a half and half animal again, and use a third breed for terminal cross, this is the 2nd highest heterosis you can get. @Davemk suggested you use a homo for black bull to get black calves. A black Simm would be anb ideal terminal bull to use. If you don't care about black calves (And I assume you don't, or you'd use a Herf x Angus black baldie) then any color Simm would be the best bull to use. Or a red Charolais.

3 way

Crossbreeding Systems for Beef Cattle | Mississippi State University Extension Service

Breeding and genetic management is an essential part of operational decision making, with decisions notably impacting profitability. Commercial cattle producers face input cost management decisions every year. Likewise, they must decide on practices that affect productivity and returns. A well...

extension.msstate.edu

"The three-breed terminal system results in the most hybrid vigor of any crossbreeding scheme. This system results in 100 percent of both individual and maternal heterosis over the average of the parent breeds, which results in an increase of 24 percent in pounds of calf weaned per cow exposed."

 

[Warren Allison]

Buy as many of the Hereford x Red Angus as you can afford. Then breed them to a homozygous black bull. Ring the

@fnfarms1, I think @simme has 2 bulls, brothers to those 2 that @ClinchValley86 and @kenny thomas bought from him last year. I think he said he was weaning them in July? They would make excellent terminal sires over those red Ang/Herf red baldies. He posted pics of them on another thread. I will see if I can find it.

 

[bird dog]

Here is a nice set at a pretty good price.

Beefmaster, Santa Gertrudis or Simbrah Replacement Heifers

These red replacement heifers are heavy muscled powerhouses ready to dominate any market they enter! They are the deep bodied, deep flanked massive boned kind! These heifers not only excel in physical attributes but also have the remarkable ability to withstand scorching temperatures, allowing...

www.jjcattleco.com

 

[Brute 23]

Here is a nice set at a pretty good price.

Beefmaster, Santa Gertrudis or Simbrah Replacement Heifers

These red replacement heifers are heavy muscled powerhouses ready to dominate any market they enter! They are the deep bodied, deep flanked massive boned kind! These heifers not only excel in physical attributes but also have the remarkable ability to withstand scorching temperatures, allowing...

www.jjcattleco.com

That's way too much skin, even for me, on most of those. A straight Angus, Hereford, Char won't clean up the calves enough to not take a hit.

 

[crossbreed]

That's way too much skin, even for me, on most of those. A straight Angus, Hereford, Char won't clean up the calves enough to not take a hit.

So you think to much Brahma influence here?

 

[Brute 23]

So you think to much Brahma influence here?

Beefmaster, and especially Gert, still carry a lot of skin. Some breeders in the BM breed have really cleaned up their cattle but very few have in the Gert world, from what I have seen.

It's not about how much Brahman but more about how clean the Brahman influence is.

If you are just trying to make females and went back with a Red Angus or Hereford, those females could be ok and you could work with their offspring if you had like a Black Angus bull, as an example.

In my experience, for some one going to the auction barn, that is more skin than you can dilute in one breeding.

When they look at cattle for the feedlot around here they are grouped 1/4 or less, 3/8-1/2, more than 1/2, Brahman. They don't actually know the breeding but it's judged on the big dopey ears and how much skin under the kneck. You can get away with some navel. You can take a fairly clean F1 and go to like an Angus and get in that 1/4 or less group. But, if you get an F1 with a lot of skin, like those, you will likely get bumped in to the 1/2-3/8, even with a straight Angus bull. Same for composites like Brangus. If they are really clean, you might slip a Brangus on Brangus calf in the 1/4 and less group but if they are not clean, the will drop down.

This goes back to why I believe 1/4 cattle are the best moms for the vast majority of people, especially in Texas. I can run a 1/4 cow down here, especially a Braford, and do just fine on heat tolerance. When I go back to a Balck Angus bull the calves are pretty much guaranteed to go in the 1/4 or less category amd sell at the top. There are also better odds on fertility and temperament.

They ship the 1/4 ear and less calves out of Texas all the way up to Kansas and they still perform. That is why that group brings the most money. It's the best of both worlds, considering the circumstances.

 

[Brute 23]

That is why I hammer on people pushing breeds. Even with in breeds there are huge variations. You want cattle that actually perform from both a visual, pounds, meat quality, etc in the sector you are going to market you cattle.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Here are some pictures of some F1 Barzona x Red angus calves. Adds heat tolerance and hybrid vigor without adding ear. Unfortunately, the Barzona is all but a dead breed. I am looking at other alternative breeds that gain heat tolerance from African genetics rather than Indian.

 

[Ky hills]

Years ago I got interested in Senepol cattle. I saw them pictured in an article from an old Drovers Journal from the late 70's. I was just a child but thought they were interesting. They never caught on like I thought they might and never saw or heard of any locally.
I believe from what I have understood others say over the years that those kinds of cattle don't do as well as the Brahman Inducus type cattle.

 

[Warren Allison]

Here are some pictures of some F1 Barzona x Red angus calves. Adds heat tolerance and hybrid vigor without adding ear. Unfortunately, the Barzona is all but a dead breed. I am looking at other alternative breeds that gain heat tolerance from African genetics rather than Indian.View attachment 43856View attachment 43857

That is what South Polls were developed from.... Barzona and Red Angus.