SF
Well-known member
Good post Ryan.
piedmontese cross???
- Thread starter glover36
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texbulldog
Well-known member
SF":6hv79jq1 said:
Thanks Ryan. I have been waiting on someone else to state the facts because I didn't want to appear as some do that their breed is the only breed. The information has always been there.
Just received this information from the ABHA:
I can report that the association has retained Dr. Dan Moser and Dr. Jennifer Bormann as consultants to develop EPD's for the breed. Work will begin this fall.
Dr. Moser is also a genetics consultant for the American Hereford Association.
We are still in our infant stage of development.
It's obvious that some of you just sit around wiating for someone to drop an answer in your lap.
Black Herefords come from Hereford and Black Angus, with both parents being registered, moreso integitry than any other upbreeding program to data in the US. There was no other type of program that required both parents to be registered in their own breeds all through the 60's, 70's etc when the Continentals were upgrading. With that in mind, then the Black Herefords have a more detailed pedigree structure than any of the other breeds that have purebred vs fullblood classification. In essense the Hereford is a fullblood, and the Black Hereford is a purebred, just like purebred Simmie vs Fullblood Simmie, etc, or anything else.
That simple, nothing more. It is readily available on websites if you bother to look, rather than sitting here whining about it.
mtnman
Black Herefords come from Hereford and Black Angus, with both parents being registered, moreso integitry than any other upbreeding program to data in the US. There was no other type of program that required both parents to be registered in their own breeds all through the 60's, 70's etc when the Continentals were upgrading. With that in mind, then the Black Herefords have a more detailed pedigree structure than any of the other breeds that have purebred vs fullblood classification. In essense the Hereford is a fullblood, and the Black Hereford is a purebred, just like purebred Simmie vs Fullblood Simmie, etc, or anything else.
That simple, nothing more. It is readily available on websites if you bother to look, rather than sitting here whining about it.
mtnman
Chuckie":g90a3efu said:
I believe that is a Leachman bull used in there Lean Beef Program. Ive seen that picture on there website and the background looks very similar to the background in there sale cataloges.
glover36
Well-known member
yeah thats not really the bul;li plann to use its in the ontario gencore AI book i forget his name i cant find his picture on the interent but i plan to breed her maybe holstien or milking shorthorn first for a small calf maybe red amngusd then on ehr second calf breed her peidmontese
mtnman":hkp3y4hx said:
And none will ever be registered by the American Herf Assoc, Canadian Herf Assoc, British Herf Assoc, Aus Herf Assoc or the World Herf Congress. Because they are not Herfs. They are cross bred / bred up animals. Call them what you will, this is not a Herf. The name is a marketing ploy and the registration is a false marketing ploy. Herf Assoc's do not allow or recognize this. Period.
Good cows or not the fact is Herfs are red and not one Herf Org recognizes a bred up animal.
Good marketing ploy on the behalf of the charletons and good marketing by creating a registration through the back door.
Anyone looking for a registered Cock-A-Poo?
I expect I will be blasted for that, but a Herf is red and anything else is a cross breed.
Bez
bgm
Well-known member
Ryan":1ngrhulh said:
Bez":1ngrhulh said:
Bez, I couldn't agree more , but the cynical side of me says... I wish I had a bunch of excess black baldy bulls, mostly hereford blood, and enough imagination to dream up such a............. marketing scheme. Guess intregrity keeps me from fulfilling such rewards of trying to profit unfairly by dishing out loads and loads of cow flop. They are cross breeds and always will be in my book.
Fred Kloppenburg
Member
my gradpa raised herefords in the fifties and every once in a while a blackone would pop up no neibors with black bulls they looked just like the rest of the herd but the red was black they were horned herefords he gave me on when i was young
SF
Well-known member
Well said Bez.
SF
Well-known member
mtnman":2y54wdsv said:
This subject has been argued for several years. They are not herefords, they won't become herefords, and they never will. They are crossbred cattle, given the hereford name as a marketing ploy. It is dishonest, misleading, and a downright lie. The unsuspecting or newcomer to the industry can be easily mislead by these type of scammers. As Bez mentioned, the Hereford associations do not recognize them.
I've looked on the websites. I'm not convinced. Looks to me like I can take a hereford cow, breed her to an Angus bull, or a black simmental bull, or a black chiania bull, or any other registered black bull and produce a black hereford. However they probably couldn't be registered with the black hereford association, because they require you to use a abha bull. Absolutely great marketing scam for the unknowing.
I wonder if Black Herefords get a better price at the feedlot than black baldies? :lol:
I have no opinion one way or the other about the Black Hereford thing.
Point is that unless you also have Horned Charolais, horned, flowered red Simmental, horned red gelvvieh, horned red limousin, etc, then you are dealing with a breed that has been graded up from something else.
What these folks are doing is no different than the strategy that led to black anything besides Angus, and a couple other british breeds, and to breed without horns.
It is just that to increase then numbers of those Continentals, the breeds allowed folks to grade them up. Hereford don't allow that, I have no opinion on the issue. If they want Black Herefords, they will just have to form their own association(which they have done), since the mother association won't recognize them. According to what I know, a Black Hereford is as much pure Hereford today, as any Simmental, Gelbvieh, Charolais, Limousin, etc, is pure (whatever) breed they are.
If a purebred Gelbvieh is 7/8 gelbvieh, a Black Hereford is 7/8 Black Hereford. There is no deciet here, no lying, no nothing, other than a marketing plan to increase the value of the stock. Only an idiot would assume they were not crossbred, and only an idiot would assume that they weren't trying to go back to the Hereford side and making them as much Hereford as they could except for the color, and of course some of the extra marbling the Angus will bring.
Whether the Hereford Associations accept them or not is irrelevant. Those breeds all beat down the door today to find folks that are at least using Herefords in a successful crossbreeding program to make the point that they were Hereford-sired, that Hereford is an integral part of a crossbreedign plan. The point is that the Associations are about marketing, more than anything else, they are steeped in tradition, rather than science or common sense. Case in point, it was close to 10 years after Angus allowed open AI that finally Hereford caved in and did the same. Guess what? Even though that was over 30 years ago, the Herefords have not closed the gap, they sre still behind because of that very simple, very traditionalist decision, and it costs them to this very day.
I respect Hereford breeders for their tenacity(we could all take a lesson here), but sometimes their dedication traditions with little merit really bites them in the butt.
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the shole Black Hereford thing, and how the AHA has handled it. I'm just saying that if you don't like the Black Herefords, then you better be running fullblood breeds of other types, too, otherwise you are a hypocrite. Brahmans, BS, they are crossbred from more breeds than most, you can't run those either. All we have done is made those breeds more useful to Americans by upgrading, and if it is time that there were a few Herefords that now fit the American mold better so be it.
I do concur with the points about sucking in unsuspecting newcomers, that is a shame, a sham, and downright wrong. If they are going to do it, then those folks need a history lesson first.
mtnman
Point is that unless you also have Horned Charolais, horned, flowered red Simmental, horned red gelvvieh, horned red limousin, etc, then you are dealing with a breed that has been graded up from something else.
What these folks are doing is no different than the strategy that led to black anything besides Angus, and a couple other british breeds, and to breed without horns.
It is just that to increase then numbers of those Continentals, the breeds allowed folks to grade them up. Hereford don't allow that, I have no opinion on the issue. If they want Black Herefords, they will just have to form their own association(which they have done), since the mother association won't recognize them. According to what I know, a Black Hereford is as much pure Hereford today, as any Simmental, Gelbvieh, Charolais, Limousin, etc, is pure (whatever) breed they are.
If a purebred Gelbvieh is 7/8 gelbvieh, a Black Hereford is 7/8 Black Hereford. There is no deciet here, no lying, no nothing, other than a marketing plan to increase the value of the stock. Only an idiot would assume they were not crossbred, and only an idiot would assume that they weren't trying to go back to the Hereford side and making them as much Hereford as they could except for the color, and of course some of the extra marbling the Angus will bring.
Whether the Hereford Associations accept them or not is irrelevant. Those breeds all beat down the door today to find folks that are at least using Herefords in a successful crossbreeding program to make the point that they were Hereford-sired, that Hereford is an integral part of a crossbreedign plan. The point is that the Associations are about marketing, more than anything else, they are steeped in tradition, rather than science or common sense. Case in point, it was close to 10 years after Angus allowed open AI that finally Hereford caved in and did the same. Guess what? Even though that was over 30 years ago, the Herefords have not closed the gap, they sre still behind because of that very simple, very traditionalist decision, and it costs them to this very day.
I respect Hereford breeders for their tenacity(we could all take a lesson here), but sometimes their dedication traditions with little merit really bites them in the butt.
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the shole Black Hereford thing, and how the AHA has handled it. I'm just saying that if you don't like the Black Herefords, then you better be running fullblood breeds of other types, too, otherwise you are a hypocrite. Brahmans, BS, they are crossbred from more breeds than most, you can't run those either. All we have done is made those breeds more useful to Americans by upgrading, and if it is time that there were a few Herefords that now fit the American mold better so be it.
I do concur with the points about sucking in unsuspecting newcomers, that is a shame, a sham, and downright wrong. If they are going to do it, then those folks need a history lesson first.
mtnman
Fred Kloppenburg":3klsiuqo said:
Fred - you have posted this before - but I challenge the statement.
There has never been a registered Herf bred to a registered Herf that threw a calf of any other colour than red. If it did it had something in the woodpile that came to the surface and was not a straight Herf. Perhaps that is why he gave it to you.
Several hundred years of breeding has tossed out anything other than red. On that you can be sure.
From: http://www.herefordcattle.org/history.php
If you visit this site you will like the artist colour pic of the 1839 Champion.
Bez
Copeman, Leachman seems to have it going on in all departments. Looks like he has all the bells and whistles. If that bull got over in my pasture, I wouldn't run him out until I got finished eating dinner.
Quad L Cattle
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SF":1dn3ihji said:
You are correct infact there are a lot of breeds that have been cross breed and then bred to there original breed for it to be considered (PUREBRED) so that they can get the color of some other breed or other trait.Ex. you hear of Black Limousin,Simmental,Maine Anjou,and even Gelbveih, and not a one of these breeds were originally BLACK!!
thats my 2cents.
Fred Kloppenburg
Member
when u cross a hereford whith an angus u get a blackbaldy not a calf with white legs and underline rest my case
Fred Kloppenburg
Member
(Several hundred years of breeding has tossed out anything other than red). On that you can be sure. again rest my case
Fred Kloppenburg":dlg82d7l said:
Fred
I am sure you are a good guy and truly believe what you say - or possibly you are shilling for the BH composite boys - but genetically speaking it is impossible for two straight reds to produce a black. Otherwise we would have heard of it many times in the past.
You can rest your case if you want - but it did not happen - does not happen - will not happen. If it does it will make headlines and the various Herf Orgs and ag groups will be the first to announce it. It would be very big news. I think there was something in the wood pile and you just might not want to admit it.
Stay well,
Bez
