Phenotype, your favorite bull?

[bse]

I can tell you, Things are different in different areas. I guess thats what makes it unique here.
Im not but maybe 4 hrs from you, I couldnt sell that bull on a bet, not knocking the bull ive got cows like that, here he wouldnt qualify for TAEP money at all, no one would use him for a heifer bull with CED of 6(6 wouldnt bother me)very few grass fed operations around here. But if you have that market its great.. seems totally different than what your breeding for?

 

[Ebenezer]

I have a calling card for you. His name is "Old Money of Branded", born 7-24-2017. Top 4% for HP epd, top 1% for DMI, top 4% for $EN. Above Angus breed average for Marb, $YG and $QG. He isn't fat and he isn't large framed. He could run on fumes, which I know you like.

AAA #: 18840930

I agree that the bull is more Wye-ish in EPDs but at the top end. My concern, not a knock, a concern, is that the 12 to 13 YO dam has only had data reported on one calf according to the AAA EPD display. Did Stone Gate not collect data on her before you bought her?

We have no cattle here that run on fumes. That would be interesting to see.

 

[NEFarmwife]

Thank you guys! He's not strong on $B, but he definitely excels on efficiency.

Can I ask what you intend to do with him or what others might see in him? His C.W. is in the bottom 5%. His $B is nearly as bad. His calves wouldn't make anyone money but may save money if you want them as pets.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this as I was just going to post my own topic after a sale this weekend which had the really great $EN across the board but one bull I saw was a negative $B and a 5 on BW with absolutely no growth. This seemed to be what they were aiming for in their head as this bull wasn't a black sheep amongst his classmates. I just don't get it.

There has to be some balance.

Pets?? I've never sold to anyone raising cattle as pets.

He is actually what a lot of people ask for around here. Haven't you been reading the posts?

He's suitable for heifers, he's highly efficient on grass, he's low maintenance. His dam was a big cow, 1750 pounds and his sire is the 2500 pound bull that I've posted on here before. He will develop a bit more slowly but he is not going to be small.

This board is a peculiar place. I get slammed for animals that are too big, but when a bull appears like Old Money, then I get slammed for them being too small. What gives?

Old Money had an adjusted 205 with no creep feed of 585 pounds and was 1100 as a yearling. Those aren't massive numbers but he's not a miniature Angus bull by any means.

Most producers here want that, they aren't running the same operations that you see out west where $B is everything. We are moving towards high $B in our operation but we know that $EN and DMI will drop.

This bull will sell to someone who has heifers to breed, wants to keep the daughters, and wants a high level of efficiency on fescue. Not to mention he is docile. I've actually had buyers go for smaller bulls because they don't want to turn out a really big bull on their heifers.

I hope I explained this in a suitable manner to you. He probably will be one of the first bulls to sell this spring because as I said earlier, he's for the grass only producers which are all over the place here. Old Money has a lot of the Wye EPD profile if you look at him closely.

Big parents don't equate to big dollars when it comes to weaning calves. If I sold those calves at weaning and someone else finished them out, I am doubtful he'd come back again. Look up Spring Valley Farms sale (Burwell NE) for their recent sale. (Sorry Spring Valley, if you're reading this)... We were so impressed with EN in their herd until we started pulling up numbers we bank our money on. I am astounded and dumbfounded. Obviously they have an audience and buyers with that operation, I just don't understand who is buying and why?

I am not attacking you. I am trying to understand this data and what he can do for a cow/calf operation? Inform me, don't put up your dukes.

 

[Lazy M]

Can I ask what you intend to do with him or what others might see in him? His C.W. is in the bottom 5%. His $B is nearly as bad. His calves wouldn't make anyone money but may save money if you want them as pets.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this as I was just going to post my own topic after a sale this weekend which had the really great $EN across the board but one bull I saw was a negative $B and a 5 on BW with absolutely no growth. This seemed to be what they were aiming for in their head as this bull wasn't a black sheep amongst his classmates. I just don't get it.

There has to be some balance.

Pets?? I've never sold to anyone raising cattle as pets.

He is actually what a lot of people ask for around here. Haven't you been reading the posts?

He's suitable for heifers, he's highly efficient on grass, he's low maintenance. His dam was a big cow, 1750 pounds and his sire is the 2500 pound bull that I've posted on here before. He will develop a bit more slowly but he is not going to be small.

This board is a peculiar place. I get slammed for animals that are too big, but when a bull appears like Old Money, then I get slammed for them being too small. What gives?

Old Money had an adjusted 205 with no creep feed of 585 pounds and was 1100 as a yearling. Those aren't massive numbers but he's not a miniature Angus bull by any means.

Most producers here want that, they aren't running the same operations that you see out west where $B is everything. We are moving towards high $B in our operation but we know that $EN and DMI will drop.

This bull will sell to someone who has heifers to breed, wants to keep the daughters, and wants a high level of efficiency on fescue. Not to mention he is docile. I've actually had buyers go for smaller bulls because they don't want to turn out a really big bull on their heifers.

I hope I explained this in a suitable manner to you. He probably will be one of the first bulls to sell this spring because as I said earlier, he's for the grass only producers which are all over the place here. Old Money has a lot of the Wye EPD profile if you look at him closely.

Big parents don't equate to big dollars when it comes to weaning calves. If I sold those calves at weaning and someone else finished them out, I am doubtful he'd come back again. Look up Spring Valley Farms sale (Burwell NE) for their recent sale. (Sorry Spring Valley, if you're reading this)... We were so impressed with EN in their herd until we started pulling up numbers we bank our money on. I am astounded and dumbfounded. Obviously they have an audience and buyers with that operation, I just don't understand who is buying and why?

I am not attacking you. I am trying to understand this data and what he can do for a cow/calf operation? Inform me, don't put up your dukes.

I think Spring Valley states their philosophy best on their website:
"..our judgment that over the last fifteen years, the industry has tended to ignore the traditional maternal Angus animal and the needs of the commercial cow-calf producers, has pushed it to be a feedlot animal, and uses the terminal EPD index -- $B - as its primary measure. We believe the industry has not yet developed indices that fully measure the traditional maternal aspects of the Angus breed - aspects critical to the performance of a cowherd. Thus, we use certain . . . not all . . . EPDs to validate our breeding.

We strongly believe the terminal EPD index of $B does not provide an effective guide for the cow-calf producer. It does not measure reproductive ability, mothering qualities, teat and udder structure, longevity and the ability to succeed on the range.

We're glad we have followed this process, because we believe recent events prove that the present EPD system using $B as its North Star may very well be inherently unreliable.

Our "older" genetics produce animals that thrive and are efficient in our range environment. Our commercial and registered animals flesh easily, and have high carcass quality in forage-fed, grass-finished, or traditional feedlot programs."
I'd imagine that Ebenezer and others would agree with this sentiment. I guess that time will tell who has employed the right strategy..

 

[NEFarmwife]

Pets?? I've never sold to anyone raising cattle as pets.

He is actually what a lot of people ask for around here. Haven't you been reading the posts?

He's suitable for heifers, he's highly efficient on grass, he's low maintenance. His dam was a big cow, 1750 pounds and his sire is the 2500 pound bull that I've posted on here before. He will develop a bit more slowly but he is not going to be small.

This board is a peculiar place. I get slammed for animals that are too big, but when a bull appears like Old Money, then I get slammed for them being too small. What gives?

Old Money had an adjusted 205 with no creep feed of 585 pounds and was 1100 as a yearling. Those aren't massive numbers but he's not a miniature Angus bull by any means.

Most producers here want that, they aren't running the same operations that you see out west where $B is everything. We are moving towards high $B in our operation but we know that $EN and DMI will drop.

This bull will sell to someone who has heifers to breed, wants to keep the daughters, and wants a high level of efficiency on fescue. Not to mention he is docile. I've actually had buyers go for smaller bulls because they don't want to turn out a really big bull on their heifers.

I hope I explained this in a suitable manner to you. He probably will be one of the first bulls to sell this spring because as I said earlier, he's for the grass only producers which are all over the place here. Old Money has a lot of the Wye EPD profile if you look at him closely.

Big parents don't equate to big dollars when it comes to weaning calves. If I sold those calves at weaning and someone else finished them out, I am doubtful he'd come back again. Look up Spring Valley Farms sale (Burwell NE) for their recent sale. (Sorry Spring Valley, if you're reading this)... We were so impressed with EN in their herd until we started pulling up numbers we bank our money on. I am astounded and dumbfounded. Obviously they have an audience and buyers with that operation, I just don't understand who is buying and why?

I am not attacking you. I am trying to understand this data and what he can do for a cow/calf operation? Inform me, don't put up your dukes.

I think Spring Valley states their philosophy best on their website:
"..our judgment that over the last fifteen years, the industry has tended to ignore the traditional maternal Angus animal and the needs of the commercial cow-calf producers, has pushed it to be a feedlot animal, and uses the terminal EPD index -- $B - as its primary measure. We believe the industry has not yet developed indices that fully measure the traditional maternal aspects of the Angus breed - aspects critical to the performance of a cowherd. Thus, we use certain . . . not all . . . EPDs to validate our breeding.

We strongly believe the terminal EPD index of $B does not provide an effective guide for the cow-calf producer. It does not measure reproductive ability, mothering qualities, teat and udder structure, longevity and the ability to succeed on the range.

We're glad we have followed this process, because we believe recent events prove that the present EPD system using $B as its North Star may very well be inherently unreliable.

Our "older" genetics produce animals that thrive and are efficient in our range environment. Our commercial and registered animals flesh easily, and have high carcass quality in forage-fed, grass-finished, or traditional feedlot programs."
I'd imagine that Ebenezer and others would agree with this sentiment. I guess that time will tell who has employed the right strategy..

I understand that rationale. But from our perspective, we are a feedlot and breed for terminal. Our females we'd like to get replacements out of, are bred for that. I don't see the value in a calf that was sired by a negative $B/$W with poor carcass merits.

 

[Lazy M]

Big parents don't equate to big dollars when it comes to weaning calves. If I sold those calves at weaning and someone else finished them out, I am doubtful he'd come back again. Look up Spring Valley Farms sale (Burwell NE) for their recent sale. (Sorry Spring Valley, if you're reading this)... We were so impressed with EN in their herd until we started pulling up numbers we bank our money on. I am astounded and dumbfounded. Obviously they have an audience and buyers with that operation, I just don't understand who is buying and why?

I am not attacking you. I am trying to understand this data and what he can do for a cow/calf operation? Inform me, don't put up your dukes.

I think Spring Valley states their philosophy best on their website:
"..our judgment that over the last fifteen years, the industry has tended to ignore the traditional maternal Angus animal and the needs of the commercial cow-calf producers, has pushed it to be a feedlot animal, and uses the terminal EPD index -- $B - as its primary measure. We believe the industry has not yet developed indices that fully measure the traditional maternal aspects of the Angus breed - aspects critical to the performance of a cowherd. Thus, we use certain . . . not all . . . EPDs to validate our breeding.

We strongly believe the terminal EPD index of $B does not provide an effective guide for the cow-calf producer. It does not measure reproductive ability, mothering qualities, teat and udder structure, longevity and the ability to succeed on the range.

We're glad we have followed this process, because we believe recent events prove that the present EPD system using $B as its North Star may very well be inherently unreliable.

Our "older" genetics produce animals that thrive and are efficient in our range environment. Our commercial and registered animals flesh easily, and have high carcass quality in forage-fed, grass-finished, or traditional feedlot programs."
I'd imagine that Ebenezer and others would agree with this sentiment. I guess that time will tell who has employed the right strategy..

I understand that rationale. But from our perspective, we are a feedlot and breed for terminal. Our females we'd like to get replacements out of, are bred for that. I don't see the value in a calf that was sired by a negative $B/$W with poor carcass merits.

True if you're breeding for strictly terminal these aren't the right bulls for you. Of course if you're breeding for terminal, WTH are you using Angus for anyway?!? Char, Sim, or Limo should be your bulls of choice

 

[NEFarmwife]

I think Spring Valley states their philosophy best on their website:
"..our judgment that over the last fifteen years, the industry has tended to ignore the traditional maternal Angus animal and the needs of the commercial cow-calf producers, has pushed it to be a feedlot animal, and uses the terminal EPD index -- $B - as its primary measure. We believe the industry has not yet developed indices that fully measure the traditional maternal aspects of the Angus breed - aspects critical to the performance of a cowherd. Thus, we use certain . . . not all . . . EPDs to validate our breeding.

We strongly believe the terminal EPD index of $B does not provide an effective guide for the cow-calf producer. It does not measure reproductive ability, mothering qualities, teat and udder structure, longevity and the ability to succeed on the range.

We're glad we have followed this process, because we believe recent events prove that the present EPD system using $B as its North Star may very well be inherently unreliable.

Our "older" genetics produce animals that thrive and are efficient in our range environment. Our commercial and registered animals flesh easily, and have high carcass quality in forage-fed, grass-finished, or traditional feedlot programs."
I'd imagine that Ebenezer and others would agree with this sentiment. I guess that time will tell who has employed the right strategy..

I understand that rationale. But from our perspective, we are a feedlot and breed for terminal. Our females we'd like to get replacements out of, are bred for that. I don't see the value in a calf that was sired by a negative $B/$W with poor carcass merits.

True if you're breeding for strictly terminal these aren't the right bulls for you. Of course if you're breeding for terminal, WTH are you using Angus for anyway?!? Char, Sim, or Limo should be your bulls of choice

Our mommas have some sim in them. We wouldn't see the same market on the others. We still have to contract them and our reds didn't do well. Kinda snubbed their noses at them. Still made money but we had to really fight and nudge for a contract. I am seeing a good set of Chars here down the road. I've been eyeing them. I'd love feedback from those folks.

 

[Lazy M]

Thanks makes sense now. I might still consider using homo black Limo or Gelbvieh for a three way cross to maximize hybrid vigor, but I think the selection of AI bulls in these breeds are limited. May get as much growth with these new high powered terminal Angus sires anyway..

 

[NEFarmwife]

Thanks makes sense now. I might still consider using homo black Limo or Gelbvieh for a three way cross to maximize hybrid vigor, but I think the selection of AI bulls in these breeds are limited. May get as much growth with these new high powered terminal Angus sires anyway..

That's just it on these angus sires. I know it's extremely early but that Blackstone is gonna be good to us. Don't have Acclaim on the ground yet but should be any time. Do have some Epic but they aren't as impressive as Blackstone. They're coming along nicely but very feminine looking the first month.

I'd take a whole herd of Blackstones. Betting we retain a bull from this crop for cleanup next year.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I have a calling card for you. His name is "Old Money of Branded", born 7-24-2017. Top 4% for HP epd, top 1% for DMI, top 4% for $EN. Above Angus breed average for Marb, $YG and $QG. He isn't fat and he isn't large framed. He could run on fumes, which I know you like.

AAA #: 18840930

I agree that the bull is more Wye-ish in EPDs but at the top end. My concern, not a knock, a concern, is that the 12 to 13 YO dam has only had data reported on one calf according to the AAA EPD display. Did Stone Gate not collect data on her before you bought her?

We have no cattle here that run on fumes. That would be interesting to see.

To the best of my knowledge Stone Gate does not do DNA testing on their animals. They however, are meticulous on weights, and ultrasound. The cow in question is no longer alive, last year she apparently stepped into a hole or something near the creek and suffered a leg injury, that she could not recover from and she was destroyed. She had a bull calf before Old Money, and he, unfortunately, was born with the placenta over his head and she was unable to get it off of him in time, and he died at birth. We have one of her daughters in production and a granddaughter. Her other calves were either sold or steered. Hence the lack of data on the dam.

Fumes was an analogy, I meant he would do well on minimal inputs, but I think you already knew that.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Thank you guys! He's not strong on $B, but he definitely excels on efficiency.

Can I ask what you intend to do with him or what others might see in him? His C.W. is in the bottom 5%. His $B is nearly as bad. His calves wouldn't make anyone money but may save money if you want them as pets.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this as I was just going to post my own topic after a sale this weekend which had the really great $EN across the board but one bull I saw was a negative $B and a 5 on BW with absolutely no growth. This seemed to be what they were aiming for in their head as this bull wasn't a black sheep amongst his classmates. I just don't get it.

There has to be some balance.

Old Money of Branded will be a favorite among the low input grass only producers around here. They value feet on the ground far more than carcass quality. Old Money is a bull that will produce lots of calves without lots of stress for the producer. When he was born, I could have easily steered him, but I knew his dam was a very good cow and the sire was high quality, then I looked at his traits and said "this bull will definitely appeal to a certain type of buyer" I knew he was an outlier, but I assure you as I said before, he will be the first to sell this spring. I would have no issue using him on our heifers, keeping the daughters, and then AI'ng those daughters to a sexed semen bull like SAV Raindance or SAV Extension to put some size back into them. Old Money has very good feet, his dam had no screw claw at all, and his sire has very good feet at nearly 5 years of age. That's important to me.

Just so you don't think I'm producing featherweights out here. Take a look at this calf, 169 days old as of today, photo was taken yesterday afternoon (excuse the mud, it's everywhere), a direct son of SAV International 2020. We are going to use this bull on some older females and steer his progeny and AI his daughters. After reading everyone's posts, I'm getting more and more interested in producing "fancy black" steers. Up to now it was no problem selling our non AI bulls, but the steers are less work, and they can be out the door sooner. We will still sell direct AI sons however. I have zero doubts that this bull would produce progeny that would be high performers on a feedlot out in your neck of the woods, what do you think? Top 10% for $B and top 15% for DMI. RADG and $F not to shabby as well.

This bull would scare the daylights out of the typical Kentucky producer, they would not even think of touching him because of his -2 CED and fact that he was about 105 pounds at birth, but I assure you he will create very nice calves. Best of all, I have a pipeline of bulls like this coming. I'm taking a risk of not being able to sell them in Kentucky, as I have been warned "If you don't breed to KCF Bennett Fortress or Connealy Comrade you are going to be stuck with a lot of bulls" However with that said, this bull below crossed with pretty much any other breed you seen in Kentucky would do a great job producing steers and definitely would give you high quality replacement heifers.





Here the calf above at 2 days old. This calf would absolutely not appeal to the low BW folks who like them at 60 pounds or so. However, this guy has never looked back and exploded on growth. If you were actively searching for a Registered Angus bull to buy in Kentucky like this guy, he would be VERY HARD to find. At 18 months he is going to be "off the chain" as they say.

Come to Kentucky and see just how easy it is to please the producers. They want a Ford Ranger pickup that can haul as much as a F-450 diesel and get 40 mpg. Tough bunch of folks to please. What they are getting, in my opinion, is a bunch of little black heifers, that cannot build any frame as long as they are stuck on the low BW high CED.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I can tell you, Things are different in different areas. I guess thats what makes it unique here.
Im not but maybe 4 hrs from you, I couldnt sell that bull on a bet, not knocking the bull ive got cows like that, here he wouldnt qualify for TAEP money at all, no one would use him for a heifer bull with CED of 6(6 wouldnt bother me)very few grass fed operations around here. But if you have that market its great.. seems totally different than what your breeding for?

Like I said, he is NOT what we are breeding for, he was an outlier, a fluke with those energy numbers, but there are a lot of people here in Kentucky with a small 20 head herd that would find him very appealing, especially his docility which he is one of the calmest bulls we have ever had.

 

[Bright Raven]

You need to post full size picture! That 169 day old bull calf is a tank!

 

[CattleMan1920]

You need to post full size picture! That 169 day old bull calf is a tank!

You are welcome to come over and see him, he has a 1/2 brother from SAV International that is also equally impressive.

I hesitate to post pics right now because all of the cattle are covered head to toe in mud. even on "clean" pastures. Those pics get criticized as you know. "I've seen better" "cattle look rough" blah blah blah.

That calf is actually clean as compared to how he has looked most of the winter. By the way, ABSOLUTELY NO CREEP FEED on this calf ever. His dam is a very big gal and she seems to produce a lot of milk for him.

Come over and I will prove it to you that he has never seen a creep feeder.

 

[CattleMan1920]

This is not a great photo, but here is a side view of him. Again 169 days old.

 

[Lazy M]

I agree, very nice calf! Count me in the camp of too heavy of a bw to leave intact though. I've been through the hard calving nightmare, and I ain't going back. 90 lbs act BW is where I draw the line for a bull.

 

[Bright Raven]

You need to post full size picture! That 169 day old bull calf is a tank!

You are welcome to come over and see him, he has a 1/2 brother from SAV International that is also equally impressive.

I hesitate to post pics right now because all of the cattle are covered head to toe in mud. even on "clean" pastures. Those pics get criticized as you know. "I've seen better" "cattle look rough" blah blah blah.

That calf is actually clean as compared to how he has looked most of the winter. By the way, ABSOLUTELY NO CREEP FEED on this calf ever. His dam is a very big gal and she seems to produce a lot of milk for him.

Come over and I will prove it to you that he has never seen a creep feeder.

I am serious. I would like to breed my Broadway Heifer to him. She is out oof a Hudson Pine/Rocking P cow. The dam would weigh about 1650. The Boardway heifer is about 130 days old and almost as big as that bull. I registered her as Big Bertha. If you like big cattle, I bet that cross would set a new standard in BIG. Big Bertha was 112 pounds at birth!

 

[CattleMan1920]

Let's DO IT! He's going to be around here for awhile.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I agree, very nice calf! Count me in the camp of too heavy of a bw to leave intact though. I've been through the hard calving nightmare, and I ain't going back. 90 lbs act BW is where I draw the line for a bull.

Nothing wrong with that, I completely understand.

But I am full time out here, and have access to multiple vets in no time flat, if a cow or heifer has problems.

110 is my cutoff point. I wouldn't want more than that.

 

[Lazy M]

I agree, very nice calf! Count me in the camp of too heavy of a bw to leave intact though. I've been through the hard calving nightmare, and I ain't going back. 90 lbs act BW is where I draw the line for a bull.

Nothing wrong with that, I completely understand.

But I am full time out here, and have access to multiple vets in no time flat, if a cow or heifer has problems.

110 is my cutoff point. I wouldn't want more than that.

Make one like that under 90# BW though and I'm very interested. :cboy: