PH question

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M-5

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I pulled Soil samples last weekend. I Sent soil test off and got my results yesterday. The pH is going up by a couple some since last year. no lime has been applied. How can the pH improve with me taking hay off the field. My NPK is about where I thought it should be. I'm just curious I figured I would have had to add lime this year.
 
Is it possible you pulled from spots where it is better than when you last pulled samples?
 
I had some test results come back from a client a few years ago where the pH differed considerably. After some research with soil scientist I found out that some certain soil types can show different pH level at different times of the year. The scientist didn't know why it was but assured me that it could happen.
 
Good to know Dave. Other than that, and lime (or other amendment) what causes PH to go up?
 
Took it in May last year 6.3 pH . this year 6.4 . I know it's not a drastic change but I took about 120 tons of hay off of last year. These fields I know have not had lime put on in over 5 or 6 years.
 
Lots of clover or other legumes in there? Or other nitrogen fixing plants? That would be my guess. A field with a good stand of white and red clover here can go a decade without needing lime if you give the clover time to put nitrogen in the ground along the way.
 
artesianspringsfarm":30n5sesy said:
Lots of clover or other legumes in there? Or other nitrogen fixing plants? That would be my guess. A field with a good stand of white and red clover here can go a decade without needing lime if you give the clover time to put nitrogen in the ground along the way.
Planted red clover this fall. No other legumes since peanuts was planted on it 30 yrs ago.
 
There are so many things that could make this happen it will make your head hurt trying to figure it out. Just so many combinations from sampling differences to the method used in the lab and like Dave said it could have to do with the time of year because the amount of root respiration and the breakdown of organic materials can affect it especially if your soil has a low buffer capacity.

Since your pH increased and if I remember right you had some drought conditions last year my guess is you got the pH bump from the weathering of cabonate parent material. This typically happens during hot dry conditions and is more evident on soils having a low buffer capacity such as sandy soils but the longer you keep it in pasture and the more organic material you add to the soil the less fluctuation you will have in the pH.
 
Lots different here because I have limestone outcrops but last fall I soil tested a new field I bought. The P&K of course was terrible as I,had expected. The PH was 7.2. I figured either me or someone had messed up. Took the results to a soil specialist and he looked at the map and ask if I had shallow limestone soil. Sure I did, that was it, the limestone was eroding at a,good pace so I should never need lime there
 
M-5":11pew56r said:
Took it in May last year 6.3 pH . this year 6.4 . I know it's not a drastic change but I took about 120 tons of hay off of last year. These fields I know have not had lime put on in over 5 or 6 years.

6.4/6.3= 1.016 = 1.6% I'd say within the margin of error for the calibration/read out accuracy of, the testing units if nothing else, or the samples were drier and maybe there was some evaporation that affected it last year.

I wouldn't get upset about it....if I got that close I'd grin.
 
M-5":16cmz87d said:
I pulled Soil samples last weekend. I Sent soil test off and got my results yesterday. The pH is going up by a couple some since last year. no lime has been applied. How can the pH improve with me taking hay off the field. My NPK is about where I thought it should be. I'm just curious I figured I would have had to add lime this year.

I can say I have never had that problem. This has got to be some of the worst country for low ph.
 
We had acid rain several years ago. The cleanup of the environment by the EPA may be working to reduce the acid in the rain. The PH level you witnessed may be the result of this cleanup.
 
hurleyjd":26nqlyqn said:
We had acid rain several years ago. The cleanup of the environment by the EPA may be working to reduce the acid in the rain. The PH level you witnessed may be the result of this cleanup.
Thanks but I highly doubt EPA had anything to do with it , we have to add sulfur because of EPA. We are Sandy but our area has alot caverns and limestone . We have 2 dolomite pits in the county but everyone is putting out tons on hayfields.
 
M-5":14z8gme8 said:
hurleyjd":14z8gme8 said:
We had acid rain several years ago. The cleanup of the environment by the EPA may be working to reduce the acid in the rain. The PH level you witnessed may be the result of this cleanup.
Thanks but I highly doubt EPA had anything to do with it , we have to add sulfur because of EPA. We are Sandy but our area has alot caverns and limestone . We have 2 dolomite pits in the county but everyone is putting out tons on hayfields.

Closest lime quarry in my area is 150 miles away for the dolomite lime. Freight is expensive. It will cost $70 a ton spread. Soil test call for two tons minimum but would really recommend 3 tons. So I am looking at $140 to $200 per acre. Getting to the point that the feed man, fertilizer man, fuel man and the equipment man gets all of my calf crop. Only thing left is a few older cows.
 
A 6.3 to 6.4 is not a lot of difference. You will easily get that much variation within a field simply by taking your samples in different spots. I did the sampling on a study that WSU did on several dairies. They choose random sites in fields to get manure applications at differing rates. I tested those and then another site 20 or 30 feet away which wouldn't get the application. There were some huge differences in the results even before the applications occurred.
 
hurleyjd":1j6rexrw said:
We had acid rain several years ago. The cleanup of the environment by the EPA may be working to reduce the acid in the rain. The PH level you witnessed may be the result of this cleanup.

Yeah and now they are proposing spraying sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere to mitigate global warming. Kind of fun to watch a cat chase its tail isn't it?
 
Dave":3taxhy27 said:
A 6.3 to 6.4 is not a lot of difference. You will easily get that much variation within a field simply by taking your samples in different spots. I did the sampling on a study that WSU did on several dairies. They choose random sites in fields to get manure applications at differing rates. I tested those and then another site 20 or 30 feet away which wouldn't get the application. There were some huge differences in the results even before the applications occurred.
I understand and figured as much , but all my life I was told to lime your hayfields every other year . The coop always pulled samples and did recommendation back then . And everyone is putting it out right now. It's just more of me trying to understand soil chemistry and why's of things.
 
I'm not sure what type soil you have but I'd guess its very similar to mine and is basically a sandy loam. If yours is the same then it is what's sometimes called a highly weathered soil and though we have plenty of limestone (calcium) in our soil its not in a form that is available to the plants. However, like I mentioned earlier, this non-useable calcium can be broken down and made available so drought or heat could release it. However there is a lot of chemistry going on so you can't just say its this either but it could be. Could also be the result of moisture conditions or a few other things.

Another thing that is easier to visualize is the buffering capacity of your soil. Weathered soils such as sandy loams tend to have a low buffering capacity. The easiest way to visualize what all this means is to picture a bicycle tire versus a tractor tire. A tractor tire would be a soil with a high buffering capacity and the loss of one pound of air would go unnoticed whereas the loss of a pound of air from the bicycle tire would be seen immediately. Transferring this thought to your soil and with your soil being a loam and having a low buffering capacity you would expect to see changes in the pH more readily than a soil with a higher buffering capacity. These changes can be due to a host of chemical reactions going on in the soil and trying to figure out exactly what's going on would only give you a headache.

A low buffering capacity can be a blessing or a curse. The blessing is that it is easy to amend but the curse is its more unstable and subject to change due to environmental factors or other things. Your goal should be to have a well balanced soil with a high buffering capacity. This can be done but it takes a lot of time and understanding of all these little things that effect your soil's chemistry and structure. The most common suggestion is to add organic matter. This is an over simplification of what's going on but its often suggested without really understanding what's going on. As mentioned, your soil is most likely what's called I a heavily weathered soil so much of the nutrients which help create the buffer are washed out of reach of your plants roots. I'm sure you are familiar with seeing the old timers turning their land. This practice would reach down and pull these nutrients in the buffer zone up to the top where the plants could use them and the crops would do better. However, if your soil is like mine and is heavily weathered and this turning practice has been done for eons then you have a plow line where the plow couldn't go any deeper. Beneath this layer the buffering capacity is most likely higher because all the nutrients have been washed into this layer and they are essentially stored and out of reach. To see how this can effect your grass all you need do is take your front end loader and dig up some of this soil beneath the plow line and spread a scoop of this somewhere in your pasture and within a year you will see a huge difference in the grass color and growth in this test spot. Not only will it be greener and more lush but it will be more drought tolerant and pH stable.

Another thing worth mentioning on soil buffering is there are some snake oil products out there which advertise using minute amounts of this rather than conventional fertilizer or manures. What some of these products can do is mine the buffer from your land just like the turning plow did which is akin to your just digging your grave deeper and not what you need and is only a short term fix can which can hurt your land if done to much. You want to save this reserve and address fixing the 18 or so inches above this layer.

In my view its best to add as much natural organic matter and nutrients as possible just like you are doing with the clover and such. Though you may not see the benefits immediately you are doing what is right for the land and helping yourself in the long run by creating a well balanced soil. You need to also have the awareness that certain chemicals can effect the chemistry or the organisms that help you build your organic layer and your soil's buffer. Sadly, this won't be easy because you are surely correcting many years of soil neglect but I think you are on the right path by trying to figure out what's going on in your soil because soil is after all the foundation of your cattle operation.

Sorry for the long post and I'm sure I've got a few things oversimplified but this is how I look at things. Hope this helps and hope it didn't give you a headache. :lol:
 
Thanks JOE ,
My soil is 1 on the CEC rating (sandy) <4.6 , I analyzed last years report vs this years and comparing the 2 . I noticed that in 17 the calcium was H 1106 and this year its still high at H 676 . there was a reduction in all elements which I would expect because of removing the hay from the fields. I can only assume by fertilizing according to test I have improved the efficiency of the soil and it is using the nutrients that are available .
 

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