LGD Discussion

[CowboyRam]

I'm would be curious how a LGD would work when the cattle scatter across 12000 acres.

 

[GoWyo]

I'm would be curious how a LGD would work when the cattle scatter across 12000 acres.

I don't think they would on just a big pasture. However, if you have a pack of wolves in that 12,000 acres I would think cattle would start to bunch up like other herbivores (bison, elk) would (moose and mule deer tend not to herd up, different strategy I guess). Then they might work if they stayed with a certain group. You have to feed the dogs and provide some protection because a pack of wolves will overwhelm a few dogs, so would need one or more full time herders just like a sheep outfit. Cat Urbigkit writes a lot of articles on her dogs over in the Pinedale area dealing with wolves on a regular basis.

 

[Stonewall Joe]

As high as they are, bullets are still cheaper than dog food or Horse and Mule feed.

but you have to be there for every occasion and at 3 am in the rain you may not be

 

[highlandvines]

Our LGD is a Maremma Kuvasz…I like the combination and see things from both breeds in her disposition

What characteristics do you like about kuvasz? We have only had Maremma and they've done a great job but are sometimes hard to find. Interested in learning as ours are getting older in age and we may need replacements some day.

 

[Farm Family]

What characteristics do you like about kuvasz? We have only had Maremma and they've done a great job but are sometimes hard to find. Interested in learning as ours are getting older in age and we may need replacements some day.

I feel that her brave, very intuitive intelligence and extreme loyalty is the Kuvasz. She has enough suspicion, sit back and observe that she makes predators and people alike question "will she" and this questioning or pause gives her a chance to make a decision on their motivation. It also gives intruders the option to leave without incident.

She is not a quick reaction dog. I know she likely can be but she is patient in times of threat which puts her, in most cases, at an advantage. Her bark scares most things off. She is not one to engage. It is not her first instinct. And she should not engage in my opinion…her job is to "read the room", read her charges and read her attackers and then use her smarts to place herself in the best place to protect and remove the threat without injury and that is certainly not always an engagement.

She has endless patience and very measured control that I feel is an asset. This likely speaks to her tendency to mature slower than other breeds. My companion dogs are labs so this does not bother me in the least.

The Kuvasz requires an experienced handler, they have a little more "attitude" and work drive than I have found than other LGD breeds. Certainly you want to start how you finish. I tend to think this is how it is with all training but yes the Kuvasz is a determined independent thinker.

And not that this matters but I also like how pretty she is…I like good looking animals. Her head is very Kuvasz. She is not overly big but she has a little more size than the Maremmas I know. Which is good here…I actually would like her to be a little bigger but it is what it is and I understand she can still grow. A male would obviously demonstrate more size. It has not been an issue. Bears, coyotes, cougars and people have all decided she is not worth the hassle.

 

[Farm Family]

I'm would be curious how a LGD would work when the cattle scatter across 12000 acres.

That is a huge range. I understand that average is about 600-700 acres as being a core range with about 2 km of roam from the core range in large territory regions. A core range refers to the space the herd and or dog spends 50% of its time. This is a natural tendency in canine species. I know our LGD has stronger bonds with some cattle than others and she tends to stay close to them…she is an extension of the herd.

When pups bond early they learn safety and companionship in the herd. This is part of that bonding which is crucial. So I imagine even in a huge range like you mention the dog would follow the main herd or the specific divisions of the herd most bonded to.

 

[Warren Allison]

I'm would be curious how a LGD would work when the cattle scatter across 12000 acres.

You know, I bet 150-100 years ago, when ranchers could afford a shepherd or herdsman to stay out on a range like this with the cattle or sheep ..with LGDs....that it was close to 100% effective predator control. If cattle prices keep going up. it might become financially feasible to do just that!

 

[CowboyRam]

You know, I bet 150-100 years ago, when ranchers could afford a shepherd or herdsman to stay out on a range like this with the cattle or sheep ..with LGDs....that it was close to 100% effective predator control. If cattle prices keep going up. it might become financially feasible to do just that!

Where I run we usually only have coyotes, and by the time I go out on the desert the calves are big enough that the coyotes don't seem to be a problem. Several years ago my uncle had a neighbor trail his sheep through one of his pastures and their LGD killed a couple calves thinking they were a threat. Otherwise I don't know of any calves being lost to predators. I was just curious as to how that might work on those big pastures.

 

[GoWyo]

Where I run we usually only have coyotes, and by the time I go out on the desert the calves are big enough that the coyotes don't seem to be a problem. Several years ago my uncle had a neighbor trail his sheep through one of his pastures and their LGD killed a couple calves thinking they were a threat. Otherwise I don't know of any calves being lost to predators. I was just curious as to how that might work on those big pastures.

If not for the fact that most of Wyoming is in the "predator zone" for wolves, there would probably be a couple of packs on the Red Desert, especially in the winter. I am sure they go through there as there have been some in the Shirley Basin and in the Rattlesnake Mountains. There have been some seen down between Cheyenne and Laramie and over by Encampment.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

On 12,000 acres I think you might need 60-100 LGD's. That is a large area and the cattle would be somewhat scattered.
The pastures we rotated sheep through varied from 40 acres to 100+ acres. There were patches of timber and brush, which can
complicate the effectiveness of the LGB's. The dogs that were being used as guard dogs were not super aggressive. I have no
doubt they made a difference in predator activity, but it is still pretty easy for a coyote or cat to slip in and make a kill, They would
not have had a chance in an environment involving wolves.

 

[Travlr]

On 12,000 acres I think you might need 60-100 LGD's. That is a large area and the cattle would be somewhat scattered.
The pastures we rotated sheep through varied from 40 acres to 100+ acres. There were patches of timber and brush, which can
complicate the effectiveness of the LGB's. The dogs that were being used as guard dogs were not super aggressive. I have no
doubt they made a difference in predator activity, but it is still pretty easy for a coyote or cat to slip in and make a kill, They would
not have had a chance in an environment involving wolves.

A single or even a couple of LGDs would have a problem dealing with a pack. And that's the strength of wolves. They don't go one on one with guardian dogs.

 

[Farm Family]

I think that would be an awesome life following the cattle

 

[Farm Family]

There are places that run LGD packs…Maremmas, Anatolians and Kangals are the more common species that make up these packs. The Maremmas are considered the "lie in" breed which stays closer to herd. The Anatolians take the mid range and the Kangals take the perimeter. If something gets past the perimeter, the mid range pick it up and Maremmas are ground zero. I have heard these packs are raised as pups, some join the established packs as offspring from the pack to replace as needed. Additionally in heavy predation with wolves they will outfit the dogs with spiked collars for added advantage. Lots of interesting methods for different terrain, predation pressures and ranges.

 

[Farm Family]

Silly pup had an apple she was bonding with this morning. 1st pic in her mouth, 2nd tucked in the warmth of her fur, and last one in standby guard position and her apple nearby on the ground. She misses her cows. Days shorter so less chicken time. Nights colder and nothing but an apple to cuddle. Such a little worker. She licked this apple, tucked it in and well demonstrated all her bonding habits. I have been making crabapple jelly so she knows they are important…one fell on the ground perhaps? But her apple and she let me look but did not have the heart to take it away. Notice guard position is ready to be in action. Always think that is cool. Anyways thought I would share

 

[Farm Family]

Well our missy miss had an adventure today…

I hear she was in the back between house and barn watching the farm when the two neighbour dogs came into the yard…one is a husky cross the other a mix of a lot of breeds. She warned them and her people - her "I am here, I see you and I want you to leave" bark. Kids looked out window for issue and weren't sure what she saw right away. Husband said he knew something was up so put down his tools and started up from barn. Suddenly her bark changed to business. My husband said he had no idea what the hell was going on…thought surely not a bear, cat or Sasquatch this time of the day (funny guy) Given her size and fierceness from his angle he knew it was something she was having nothing of. Kids agreed she was mad, big and not impressed. They feel our LGD drew a line the dogs obviously crossed. She engaged biting one right in the ass. It yelped and cried all the way home. The other decided to get home and not tempt fate. Husband said by the time he arrived she looked after it All he saw was the back ends of two mutts high tailing back under their fence and a really ticked LGD standing her ground, firmly on her property. After they left, she swept the property line, peed on the road in front of their drive way and told the family all about her frustrations. Goodness.

Yet tonight a doe and her fawn were given a free pass to graze the woods not 10 feet from her. She saw them but not a peep or move in their direction. Good girl.

I came home from checking the cows this weekend and boy she was excited, licking and smelling me more than usual. I think she misses her herd. A couple more weeks before they all get home. Moved one group due to a grizzly kill. Not our cattle but neighbouring cattle so thought best not risk an encounter since they were pulling theirs and ours would be next on the menu. 'tis the season when hungry bears tend to get the right of way around here

BTW she still has her apple tucked by her den.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Love to hear your reports on your dog. They sure can be a great addition to the farm and family.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I'm would be curious how a LGD would work when the cattle scatter across 12000 acres.

Gotta have puppies.

 

[Farm Family]

Love to hear your reports on your dog. They sure can be a great addition to the farm and family.

Thanks Jeanne. Agreed

 

[Farm Family]

A little off topic but it was on this thread @TexasRancher was asking about our bulls due to the "fat cows" in the background of my first page LGD picture… just Angus bulls I assured him…but I have been meaning to put a picture up. So here are the two boys…autumn pic was just the other day before we got four inches of snow and green one of the other bull was late September. Both bulls are similar in make and both are homegrown.

 

[Farm Family]

This is a good pup! Barked to let us know that this "brat" had escaped her pen. Days old and already up to mischief! Good dog making sure no one else comes out the now open gate and waiting for "her" calf to return with lots of space for everyone! Though as you can see the calf turned back in the direction she had just came looking to return for some more fun and games! Why return to a pen when I run free and get all this attention!