How'd they get black?

[1848]

Let's summerize your 101!


This is "your" first statement on this thread!

Most of the black comes from the Welsh Black being bred to these other breeds not the Angus as some would have you believe.

Now once again, here is what you said some time ago in probably the first thread on Welsh Blacks.

Welsh Black a breed that has the beef, the fast growth and of course the color black. Alot of breeds that have turned black have angus in them here is one that is black on its own. What do you know good or bad about this breed? Some of the bull testing I have seen and EFI look real good.

Here is your second post on the thread

O.K. show me one study that shows that the black in black Limousin, Simmental, Gelbvieh, or Maine angou comes from Angus. And I will give.

Teacher, please show us a study that shows they came from Welsh Black....first!

Once again, here is Farmer Rich's post (the guy from England) from the ol' Welsh Bashing thread..you know the same one where you were quoted above as saying that allot of brreds that turned black have "Angus" in them! This guy is from the same county the animal hails from, but it dosen't seem like the cattle have really caught on there...yet! I tend to believe him. Why would he have any reason to say different? Did some Welsh Black cow offend him teacher?

There is also a reason why welsh black is not popular here, this is due to their smaller size, lower growth rates and poorer confirmation when compared to the continental breeds as well as the more popular british ones. Not an attempt to discredit, just pointing out a fact, and remember we are supplying different markets that require a different sort of animal.

I really don't think using this "single opinion" has any relevance to your claim that Welsh Black are responsible for "being bred to these other breeds and not the Angus"

There is no proof out there as of yet just were the black comes from in most of these breeds. So anyone that says the black is from Welsh Black, Angus or any other black breed is just giving their opinion not a true fact!.

So why did you even make your initial statement? (see above) :shock:

knock? knock? :shock: Hello?

..and then you listed all these "facts" that are supposed to prove that you are right about Welsh Black not being the reason for the black, after you stated it? It looked liked facts about quality and phenotype to me teach, not about how the great Welsh Black changed all other breeds!

..then I list a few hasty tidbits I found (which is all the proof I needed) and you say I need to do the research! If you are going to teach a class you should know the material ...ya think!

You yourself state "THERE IS NO PROOF". So who's point is to be made based on your first post? Rustler9 states his opinion, and even though there is no proof of anything you ask him if he is right? :roll:

The Austrailian thing went right over your head! :lol:

Then right after you posted that carcass data you called them inferior!

"Not to bad for such inferior cattle eh?"].

I am sooo confused teach. I hope there won't be a test!

.....and finally! Here you are doing what we call "crawfishing" in the south...that's the US of A south!

If you will just read the post without haste you will see a line like this ( There is no proof that the black comes from Welsh Black, Angus or any other black breed.) Point is made. I have as much proof it came from Welsh Black as any one does that it came from another black breed.?"

My post that Welsh Black did it was to show Jason W that there are only opinions to his question no facts.?"

Hope you like my report teach! Thanks for the "quick" 101! ;-)

P.S. My wife has been in country and seen them first hand!

...and she said the lookd like "Sh**t! Of course, it could have just been the farm, the season, the forage....or...the breed!

I Apologize to the Welsh Black Breeders for the last comment. It was mearly an opinion of my wifes! :lol:

 

[S.R.R.]

It is O.K. 1848 dont feel bad that you have a hard time learning new things.
Keep your head up and dont let people tell you there is anything that you can not do. I bet that there is alot of things in life you are good at. I am with you all the way chin up!

 

[1848]

It is O.K. 1848 dont feel bad that you have a hard time learning new things.
Keep your head up and dont let people tell you there is anything that you can not do. I bet that there is alot of things in life you are good at. I am with you all the way chin up!

Thanks for the motivational speech teach!

At least the class was fun! :lol:

 

[1848]

Well, back to work! :lol:

 

[S.R.R.]

I really hope that you are just bull headed and not as slow as you make yourself out to be 1848. In case you never heard of it look up the word SARCASM and then reread my posts. If this does not help you I leave you in your wifes capable hands which is a scary thought since her knowledge of these cattle seems to be almost as good as yours. Also do not degrade the good people of the southern states by claiming to be one of them when we both know the truth. At this point you are a waste of time and there will be no more post from me on this thread.

 

[1848]

I really hope that you are just bull headed and not as slow as you make yourself out to be 1848.

Yes, just bull headed....like my wife! :lol:...and opininated! ;-)

In case you never heard of it look up the word SARCASM and then reread my posts. If this does not help you I leave you in your wifes capable hands which is a scary thought since her knowledge of these cattle seems to be almost as good as yours.

I already read your "sarcasim" .. First you smooth something all up and then say it ain't so. :roll:

Below are some exerpts of yours in the o'l thread "Welsh Black vs Angus" demonstrating "your"....sarcasim??? :?:

"a true replacement to the good old angus has been missed".

"maybe the Welsh Black in Canada are bigger then the UK. Or are these number just rare for this breed"

"Sorry to be a stickler on this farmer rich but this is from them in the know "Welsh Blacks are among the FASTEST GROWING of all BRITISH Breeds, both in RATE of GAIN and WEIGHT for AGE,"

"I checked the Angus and Hereford sites and they make no such claims. Which society web page are you talking about?"

Sounds like sensitivity to me...not sarcasim

Also do not degrade the good people of the southern states by claiming to be one of them when we both know the truth..

Reeeaaallly? Truth! You can't handle the truth! :lol: I'll let you stay in your own little world on that one....mate! ;-)

At this point you are a waste of time and there will be no more post from me on this thread.

Good!

 

[1848]

Oh, and one last thing!

I hope you don't "Welsh" on your promise that there will be no more post from you on this thread! ;-) :lol2: :lol2:

 

[Fred Kloppenburg]

i was at sale about 6 months ago and they have black brahmans now and they looked pretty good but where to high for me

 

[smoky]

When most of these breeds were imported from their respective countries (usually in the 60's and 70's), it was much easier to import semen and breed back up- 1st generation 1/2 blood, 2nd generation 3/4 blood, 3rd generation 7/8 blood. Once an animal reached 7/8 blood in most breeds it is considered purebred by that breed's registry regardless of what the other 1/8 is. Most were bred to angus based cattle since they were readily available. And since the black color gene is dominant to red, you have a 50-50 chance of a black hided offspring any time 1 of the parents is black and at least a 75% chance if both parents are black.

Thats how they got black. Now, why are they staying black?...The answer is....

Certified Angus Beef!!!

The consumer has bought in to this program. More is paid for cattle and retail product fitting this grid. One of the requirements is a predominately black hided calf. They do not blood type to prove that the calf actually has angus genetics in it.

Order buyers are paying a premium at the sale barn for black hided calves, so producers wanting to optimize their profits must take advantage of this as one of their criteria for bull selection. Hence we, as seedstock producers are breeding what the market wants.

My 2 cents,

Smoky

 

[AAOK]

I read through all five pages to find that Smokey finally answered the question in the last previous post. I can only speak about the Maine-Anjou breed as to "how they got black?" Here 'tis...........

The Maine-Anjou breed originated in the northwestern part of France. This area is excellent for beef production as it has both grassland and tillable land.

At the beginning of the 19th century, the cattle in this region were large, well-muscled animals with light red coats spotted with white. These cattle were known as the Mancelle breed. In addition to their size and muscling, the Mancelle has a reputation for their easy fattening. Laclere-Thouin, an agriculturist, wrote in 1843 that on the community pastures of the Auge Valley, the Mancelle "were the last to be put onto the grass, but were the first to be picked out to go to the markets in the capital city".

In 1839 the Count de Falloux, a landowner, imported Durham cattle from England and crossed them with the Mancelle. The cross was extremely successful, and by 1850, Durham-Mancelle animals were winning championships at the French agricultural fairs. In 1908, the Society of Durham-Mancelle Breeders was formed at Chateau-Gontier in the Mayenne district. In 1909, the name was changed to the Society of Maine-Anjou Cattle Breeders, taking the name from the Maine and Anjou River valleys.

The Society has worked steadily for the improvement of the breed. Breeders of the cattle were mostly small farmers whose goal was to maximize income from their small area of land. For this reason, the Maine-Anjou evolved as a dual-purpose breed, with the cows used for milk production and the bull calves fed for market. It is still common on many farms to find Maine-Anjou being milked. In many herds, half the cows are milked and the other half raise two calves each.

The Maine-Anjou is one of the larger breeds developed in France, with mature bulls weighing from 2,200 to 3,100 pounds on the average. Mature cows will range from 1,500 to 1,900 pounds. The coloring is very dark red with white markings on the head, belly, and rear legs and tail. White on other parts of the body is also common.

The first Maine-Anjou imported into North America came to Canada in 1969. These cattle were then introduced to the United States through artificial insemination. The first Maine-Anjou bull was imported from Canada in 1974.

The Maine-Anjou Society, Inc. was incorporated in Nebraska in 1969, and included both American and Canadian members. In 1971, the name was changed to the International Maine-Anjou Association and headquarters were set up in the Livestock Exchange Building in Kansas City, Missouri. In 1976, the named was changed to the American Maine-Anjou Association.

Modern day Maine-Anjou are more solid in color pattern than their ancestors with a large percentage of registered American Maine-Anjou cattle being black in color. The Maine-Anjou breed excels in performance/feed efficiency, disposition and superb carcass traits. Dominance of feeding trials coupled with favorable returns on dollars invested have made Maine-Anjou cattle a feedlot manager's dream.

Now; back to my own words............Iowa is the birthplace of Maines in the U.S., but for several years Oklahoma has had the most breeders, the most registrations, and the most transfers. In the late 1970s, Ferris ranch began to AI their fullblood ANGUS cows to fullblood Maine-Anjou bulls to get them black and polled, plus add muscle, bone and mobility.

BTW: The positivly fullblood British breeds in the U.S. sure grew in frame score in the late 70s/early 80s coincidently the same time as the introduction of the Chiania. :?: :?: :?:

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I read through all five pages to find that Smokey finally answered the question in the last previous post. I can only speak about the Maine-Anjou breed as to "how they got black?" Here 'tis...........

The Maine-Anjou breed originated in the northwestern part of France. This area is excellent for beef production as it has both grassland and tillable land.

At the beginning of the 19th century, the cattle in this region were large, well-muscled animals with light red coats spotted with white. These cattle were known as the Mancelle breed. In addition to their size and muscling, the Mancelle has a reputation for their easy fattening. Laclere-Thouin, an agriculturist, wrote in 1843 that on the community pastures of the Auge Valley, the Mancelle "were the last to be put onto the grass, but were the first to be picked out to go to the markets in the capital city".

In 1839 the Count de Falloux, a landowner, imported Durham cattle from England and crossed them with the Mancelle. The cross was extremely successful, and by 1850, Durham-Mancelle animals were winning championships at the French agricultural fairs. In 1908, the Society of Durham-Mancelle Breeders was formed at Chateau-Gontier in the Mayenne district. In 1909, the name was changed to the Society of Maine-Anjou Cattle Breeders, taking the name from the Maine and Anjou River valleys.

The Society has worked steadily for the improvement of the breed. Breeders of the cattle were mostly small farmers whose goal was to maximize income from their small area of land. For this reason, the Maine-Anjou evolved as a dual-purpose breed, with the cows used for milk production and the bull calves fed for market. It is still common on many farms to find Maine-Anjou being milked. In many herds, half the cows are milked and the other half raise two calves each.

The Maine-Anjou is one of the larger breeds developed in France, with mature bulls weighing from 2,200 to 3,100 pounds on the average. Mature cows will range from 1,500 to 1,900 pounds. The coloring is very dark red with white markings on the head, belly, and rear legs and tail. White on other parts of the body is also common.

The first Maine-Anjou imported into North America came to Canada in 1969. These cattle were then introduced to the United States through artificial insemination. The first Maine-Anjou bull was imported from Canada in 1974.

The Maine-Anjou Society, Inc. was incorporated in Nebraska in 1969, and included both American and Canadian members. In 1971, the name was changed to the International Maine-Anjou Association and headquarters were set up in the Livestock Exchange Building in Kansas City, Missouri. In 1976, the named was changed to the American Maine-Anjou Association.

Modern day Maine-Anjou are more solid in color pattern than their ancestors with a large percentage of registered American Maine-Anjou cattle being black in color. The Maine-Anjou breed excels in performance/feed efficiency, disposition and superb carcass traits. Dominance of feeding trials coupled with favorable returns on dollars invested have made Maine-Anjou cattle a feedlot manager's dream.

Now; back to my own words............Iowa is the birthplace of Maines in the U.S., but for several years Oklahoma has had the most breeders, the most registrations, and the most transfers. In the late 1970s, Ferris ranch began to AI their fullblood ANGUS cows to fullblood Maine-Anjou bulls to get them black and polled, plus add muscle, bone and mobility.

BTW: The positivly fullblood British breeds in the U.S. sure grew in frame score in the late 70s/early 80s coincidently the same time as the introduction of the Chiania. :?: :?: :?:

This is an excellent post, AAOK! Specific and TO THE POINT! Some of the posts in the past have displayed arguments and ego's which signify - not too much! It seems to me that some of us are degenerating into the same hubris attitudes that some of the Show Dog people demonstrate at their shows! They act as if they are showing their "children" (which, I guess, is how they feel about their dogs) and if you say anything negative about their 'kids' they foam at the mouth! Sounds kinda' familiar, doesn't it? :shock: "Don't you DARE insult MY breed! :shock: My question to all this "Stuff" is, "Are we breeding BREEDS, or are we breeding WHAT'S FOR DINNER?" My feelings are - the breeder who is in the Beef BUSINESS had better get his priorities in proper order.

 

[Beefy]

black brahmans have been around a long time unless there is something new that i dont know about.

 

[J. T.]

According to my Beef Cattle Production class of twenty some-odd years ago at Auburn University, the increased size in the Angus was attributed to the Chianina and Simmentals gave the Herefords a boost in frame size and added eye pigmentation, also. And, in the early 80's while at AU, the collegiate FFA sponsored steer sales. The majority of the steers were Chianina of which all were black even at that early date. The pedigrees on these steers showed Angus breeding, which really wasn't a suprise to anyone.

 

[Anonymous]

According to my Beef Cattle Production class of twenty some-odd years ago at Auburn University, the increased size in the Angus was attributed to the Chianina and Simmentals gave the Herefords a boost in frame size and added eye pigmentation, also. And, in the early 80's while at AU, the collegiate FFA sponsored steer sales. The majority of the steers were Chianina of which all were black even at that early date. The pedigrees on these steers showed Angus breeding, which really wasn't a suprise to anyone.

That is an interesting comment on the Herf side, as the rule books from all national and international Herf orgs refuses to allow any additional outside genetics into the breed.

I therefore have to question the accuracy of the teachings you have experienced.

In otherwords, unlike other breeds, this org does not allow "built up" cattle. If it ain't 100% Herf, it ain't in the book and it ain't got papers saying it's a Herf.

As for commercials - well could not agree or disagree, as I have little or no knowledge on that - they cross with everything, and have been crossed with everything.

Bez'

 

[dun]

The size issue has been done to death. Most people other then those with an aze to grind realize that the selective breeding of any breed will create the size variation. Unlike black color, the genes were there, just took someone to select for size. I'm not saying that there may not have been some hankypanky by somne people to try to short cut the process, but the majority of the breeders didn;t. There were posts a while back on the subject that dealt with the size deal and had historical data to substantiate it.

dun

 

[DOC HARRIS]

According to my Beef Cattle Production class of twenty some-odd years ago at Auburn University, the increased size in the Angus was attributed to the Chianina and Simmentals gave the Herefords a boost in frame size and added eye pigmentation, also. And, in the early 80's while at AU, the collegiate FFA sponsored steer sales. The majority of the steers were Chianina of which all were black even at that early date. The pedigrees on these steers showed Angus breeding, which really wasn't a suprise to anyone.

Go-o-o-l-l-y! I guess, then, that the jaw-dropping, eye-popping and totally un-heard-of answer to the original question - "How'd They Get Black?" is - DOMINANT GENES! :shock: :shock: Now - the next question, logically, would be: WHO KNOWS?, and we cycle back to - Page 1! :roll:

 

[J. T.]

According to my Beef Cattle Production class of twenty some-odd years ago at Auburn University, the increased size in the Angus was attributed to the Chianina and Simmentals gave the Herefords a boost in frame size and added eye pigmentation, also. And, in the early 80's while at AU, the collegiate FFA sponsored steer sales. The majority of the steers were Chianina of which all were black even at that early date. The pedigrees on these steers showed Angus breeding, which really wasn't a suprise to anyone.

Go-o-o-l-l-y! I guess, then, that the jaw-dropping, eye-popping and totally un-heard-of answer to the original question - "How'd They Get Black?" is - DOMINANT GENES! :shock: :shock: Now - the next question, logically, would be: WHO KNOWS?, and we cycle back to - Page 1! :roll:

I imagine there are plenty of folks who know....they just ain't talking. ;-) But as another poster said, are we raising beef or just beef breeds? And like I once quoted to you Doc, Tom Lasater stated that "The color of the hide doesn't matter when the T-bone is on the platter."

 

[DOC HARRIS]

According to my Beef Cattle Production class of twenty some-odd years ago at Auburn University, the increased size in the Angus was attributed to the Chianina and Simmentals gave the Herefords a boost in frame size and added eye pigmentation, also. And, in the early 80's while at AU, the collegiate FFA sponsored steer sales. The majority of the steers were Chianina of which all were black even at that early date. The pedigrees on these steers showed Angus breeding, which really wasn't a suprise to anyone.

Go-o-o-l-l-y! I guess, then, that the jaw-dropping, eye-popping and totally un-heard-of answer to the original question - "How'd They Get Black?" is - DOMINANT GENES! :shock: :shock: Now - the next question, logically, would be: WHO KNOWS?, and we cycle back to - Page 1! :roll:

I imagine there are plenty of folks who know....they just ain't talking. ;-) But as another poster said, are we raising beef or just beef breeds? And like I once quoted to you Doc, Tom Lasater stated that "The color of the hide doesn't matter when the T-bone is on the platter."

EGG - ZACK - LEE!!

 

[AAOK]

[/quote]Go-o-o-l-l-y! I guess, then, that the jaw-dropping, eye-popping and totally un-heard-of answer to the original question - "How'd They Get Black?" is - DOMINANT GENES! :shock: :shock: Now - the next question, logically, would be: WHO KNOWS?, and we cycle back to - Page 1! :roll:[/quote]

A--- MEN!!!! :stop: