How old to tell?

[vbd]

How old (or big) do heifer calves have to be for the vet to determine whether or not they are freemartins?

 

[bigbull338]

they have tobe old enough an big enough to palpate.i can look at a heifer an tell pretty quick.some people cant.you can look at thier baggs.if they tight they freemartins.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I saw one recently. A little heifer that was not a free martin had teats about the size of my pinky tips. She is half milk cow. The full blood holstein free martin standing beside her had teats that could barely be found. They looked just like the teats of a little bull and there was virtually no udder to ever develop. With the two calves standing side by side, it was like night and day. The free martin was picked up at the dairy sale there in Stephenville, in error. The guy who bought her intended on getting a nurse cow.

Did you buy some heifer calves at auction?

 

[backhoeboogie]

Thursday a.m. I am hauling two steers to Hamilton, TX. I will be traveling through Stephenville. I could stop on the way back and take a look if you pm me with info.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

Check out this link for more freemartin info.

http://www.agcanada.com/custompages/sto ... =167&id=86

This link is for a freemartin probe tool:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html ... 95e43850f1

Bottom line-freemartins will not have a full set of female equipment. Very small teats are usually a sign of a freemartin.
Hope this helps.

BTW-I think Stevenville Cattle Co auction checks all dairy heifers before selling. Their vet should be able to help you out. Don't know his name but the auction owner is Troy & Cheryl Moore. They can probably help you out.

Good luck & happy trails.

Brock

 

[dun]

Freemartins can range from the obvious to those that you can;t detect without either waiting to see if they can carry a pregnancy or doing a blood test. In some cases the latter 2 methods are the only way to tell. For the blood test they need to be a couple of weeks old for the other they need to be a old enough to have calved.

dun

 

[Lammie]

I have a Free Martin calf right now. She has 6 teats, and they have what looks like smaller teats growing off of them. Freaky. :shock:

 

[Chris H]

Freemartins can range from the obvious to those that you can;t detect without either waiting to see if they can carry a pregnancy or doing a blood test. In some cases the latter 2 methods are the only way to tell. For the blood test they need to be a couple of weeks old for the other they need to be a old enough to have calved.

dun

I have the experience to back up what dun says. One of our herdsires had a twin sister. We know the breeder/owner real well. He said that heifer cycled, but never got pregnant.
We also had a twin heifer we kept to butcher. She looked like a real good replacement, so we put her with the bull. She cycled, but never got pregnant. She was real to good, though.

Most of our twin heifers from heifer/bull combos get sold off as bottle calves and we keep the bulls. The buyer is always told what they're getting.

 

[3MR]

Freemartins can range from the obvious to those that you can;t detect without either waiting to see if they can carry a pregnancy or doing a blood test. In some cases the latter 2 methods are the only way to tell. For the blood test they need to be a couple of weeks old for the other they need to be a old enough to have calved.

dun

I have the experience to back up what dun says. One of our herdsires had a twin sister. We know the breeder/owner real well. He said that heifer cycled, but never got pregnant.
We also had a twin heifer we kept to butcher. She looked like a real good replacement, so we put her with the bull. She cycled, but never got pregnant. She was real to good, though.

Most of our twin heifers from heifer/bull combos get sold off as bottle calves and we keep the bulls. The buyer is always told what they're getting.

Why would you even consider using a freemartin as a replacement? Thats begging for trouble, IMHO

 

[certherfbeef]

Why would you even consider using a freemartin as a replacement? Thats begging for trouble, IMHO

Why? I have a set of twin heifers with the bull right now. Ya, the chance of getting twins increases because they are twins but not enough for me to send them down the road when they are out of my best commercial cow.

A freemartin does not have the right equipment to settle and be safe in calf. We have had heifers that are twins with a bull settle and calve and turn into productive cows. If they turn up open as heifers they end up in my freezer. Not much different than feeding out a steer for a year for the freezer.

Freemartin is a freemartin is a freemartin. Just cause they are twins with a bull doesn't mean they are freemartin.

 

[3MR]

Why would you even consider using a freemartin as a replacement? Thats begging for trouble, IMHO

Why? I have a set of twin heifers with the bull right now. Ya, the chance of getting twins increases because they are twins but not enough for me to send them down the road when they are out of my best commercial cow.

A freemartin does not have the right equipment to settle and be safe in calf. We have had heifers that are twins with a bull settle and calve and turn into productive cows. If they turn up open as heifers they end up in my freezer. Not much different than feeding out a steer for a year for the freezer.

Freemartin is a freemartin is a freemartin. Just cause they are twins with a bull doesn't mean they are freemartin.

OK, but even if you get a calf, your chances of getting another one are only slighty improved in that you know at least at one point she was capable of it. If she didnt develop right you have a higher percentage of problems each time even if she takes. Would you buy a replacement cow on those odds.

I understand you might get lucky and she isnt a freemartin, but you might also win the lottery.

But what you say about trying them sort of makes since, maybe, if you use a bull. I think I got wrapped up in the word replacement.

I still dont think I would invest anything in breeding a twin.

 

[certherfbeef]

I still dont think I would invest anything in breeding a twin.

Point taken 3MR. I probably wouldn't buy an animal that I knew was a twin.
As for investing in breeding a twin, the ones I have now were born here and serviced by the bull. I have plenty of hay and more than enough pasture this year. I see it as an investment in the quality of my herd...they are out of my best commercial cow.
Raising twins, IMO, depends on the resources you have available for that year.

Now that we've strayed from the origional question...

 

[3MR]

I still dont think I would invest anything in breeding a twin.

Point taken 3MR. I probably wouldn't buy an animal that I knew was a twin.
As for investing in breeding a twin, the ones I have now were born here and serviced by the bull. I have plenty of hay and more than enough pasture this year. I see it as an investment in the quality of my herd...they are out of my best commercial cow.
Raising twins, IMO, depends on the resources you have available for that year.

Now that we've strayed from the origional question...

LOL, somebodies probably looking for a rope right now :lol:

Sorry!

 

[backhoeboogie]

Why would you even consider using a freemartin as a replacement? Thats begging for trouble, IMHO

With heifers acquired at the sale barn, their is no sure way of knowing, since they aren't tested. I don't think anyone would buy one for breeding potential if they knew they were free martins. This is simply another risk you take when you buy. If the calves are dropped with no information or disclosure, the auction has no way of knowing. It happens. I have been lucky. Never happened to me. I know of one case where someone was not so lucky, bought one, and took a slight loss on it.

 

[dun]

The only twin to a bull heifer we had that we wanted to retain as a replacement we had blood tested. Costed something like 35 bucks when she was a couple of weeks old.

dun

 

[milkmaid]

My vet tells me he wouldn't rely on the freemartin probe tool to tell that a heifer was NOT a freemartin. As dun pointed out, they can range from completely lacking the internal reproductive organs, to having everything, able to cycle, be serviced, but never carry a pregnancy.

They need to be around 600lbs before they can be palpated.

 

[3MR]

I think Dun's method is the best way to go. They either have the chromosome or they dont. If they do, stay away from them. Takes the guess work out of it.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I think Dun's method is the best way to go. They either have the chromosome or they dont. If they do, stay away from them. Takes the guess work out of it.

If it is inherently obvious, why even go through the motions?

If they don't have the proper organs to even nurse, why even check to see if they can calve?

They don't have to be 600 lbs to check if they don't have signs of teats or an udder at 200 lbs.

I would never debate Dun. If the heifer was questionable, that's one thing. But if it is a sure thing as is, there is no need to do any testing. Get another heifer.

 

[dun]

I think Dun's method is the best way to go. They either have the chromosome or they dont. If they do, stay away from them. Takes the guess work out of it.

If it is inherently obvious, why even go through the motions?

If they don't have the proper organs to even nurse, why even check to see if they can calve?

They don't have to be 600 lbs to check if they don't have signs of teats or an udder at 200 lbs.

That's the whole point. The obvious ones you can discard out of hand, but if they appear normal and pass the speculum test they still may be freemartins. If all appears normal, do the blood test, saves time and money.

dun

 

[backhoeboogie]

dun,

I agree with that totally. (I was editing the post you responded to, at the same time you responded I guess)