Here's to the "let them eat dirt" crowd

[Bright Raven]

I enjoy your pictures. The setting is amazing!

 

[Dave]

I think Branded would call the majority of cows here scrubs. But they live on sparse short grass in the summer and grass hay in the winter. They have never seen grain in any form. They calf pretty much unassisted. They have all gone to the hills over the last couple of weeks. Now they will rarely see a human until fall. But come fall they will bring in a hard calf that will sell at the top of the market. They will have bred back while crawling around on steep rocky ground. And most importantly they will make their owners money.

 

[Nesikep]

I think Branded would call the majority of cows here scrubs. But they live on sparse short grass in the summer and grass hay in the winter. They have never seen grain in any form. They calf pretty much unassisted. They have all gone to the hills over the last couple of weeks. Now they will rarely see a human until fall. But come fall they will bring in a hard calf that will sell at the top of the market. They will have bred back while crawling around on steep rocky ground. And most importantly they will make their owners money.

Speaking of.. I haven't seen Oldtimer post here in a while.. while I don't think his cows are suited to what I do, they certainly work for him and his customers.. His cows are small, 1200lbs by the looks of it, a bit on the thin side, at least at the times I saw, but they had good calves at their side and didn't get much feed other than scrubby Montana grass.. Mine would complain at that menu

 

[Silver]

You get no consistency using a crossbred bull on crossbred cows.

That's simply not necessarily the case.

 

[CreekAngus]

2000lb cows isn't a rarity in the Angus breed (Hoff). But as seed stock folks we have to have foresight as to how the size of our cattle will work for customers. I want my cattle to run at 1600 lbs, 6 to 7 frame, bcs 6 year round, because the folks I sell bulls to run smaller cattle 1200 lbs. My boys need to be able to plug in some performance into those herds. 2000lbs cows typically have more faults, aren't efficient at all and harder to manage (facilities). And if your foresight tells you 2000lb cattle fit your agenda, have at it, run your own race.

 

[wbvs58]

Yes BH, I think while your cows might be eye candy to you ( I do what I do so I can walk amongst my girls and admire what I have produced, with their help of course). I am sure your genetics would work in most commercial herds but i am also sure that in the eyes of most commercial cattleman that you are targeting as a market for your bulls that they would be very wary of what you produce as they would feel that they have not been reared in the real world conditions that they experience.

Ken

 

[CattleMan1920]

2000lb cows isn't a rarity in the Angus breed (Hoff). But as seed stock folks we have to have foresight as to how the size of our cattle will work for customers. I want my cattle to run at 1600 lbs, 6 to 7 frame, bcs 6 year round, because the folks I sell bulls to run smaller cattle 1200 lbs. My boys need to be able to plug in some performance into those herds. 2000lbs cows typically have more faults, aren't efficient at all and harder to manage (facilities). And if your foresight tells you 2000lb cattle fit your agenda, have at it, run your own race.

Not correct.

My clients need size brought into their herds, the whole area I'm in needs it, badly. Weaning 4 or 5 weights at 205 with a creep feeder in the field isn't my idea of great business plan in the beef business. It's a plan to die a slow death if anything.

My cows are contained mostly with poly wire and a small solar box. They never give me issues. They have high quality feet. You make them sound unmanageable, when in fact they are totally chilled out baby makers.

As for efficiency, I understand where that would be an issue in areas where there is no feed. As Bright Raven can attest with his own operation near me, the grass is insane here. I've posted videos of it, I'm already mowing down pastures to keep them under control. One lot I have, had 30 head on 12 acres and they can't keep it down. I could probably run triple my herd right now with all the grass that we have. Why would I be worried about efficiency? I need them to eat like crazy so I don't have a jungle.

With that said, nearly my entire herd, based on genomic enhanced EPD's ranks top 30% for DMI and $EN. So they are efficient.

My bulls are efficient too, ranking well above breed average.

 

[sstterry]

One lot I have, had 30 head on 12 acres and they can't keep it down. I could probably run triple my herd right now with all the grass that we have. Why would I be worried about efficiency? I need them to eat like crazy so I don't have a jungle.

But that can change quickly. Just ask our South GA friends now or our Texas brethren last year. The middle South has been unusually wet the past two years.

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

Couldn't get these two guys to pose right... they're pretty much full brothers, not a whole lot of age difference.. 40 lb birthweight difference though

You get no consistency using a crossbred bull on crossbred cows. Nesikep your calves look a lot better than what I expected, but a good pure bred bull will do wonders for your consistency.

Consistent cow families make consistent calves. PB or crosses. Knowledge of those families and what works and what doesn't and the vision to see how it all works makes you a breeder.

 

[WinterSpringsFarm]

Brook hill, I'd really like to see some numbers from your operation. Like all your input costs, and your net profit per calf. And then pick your best cow and figure up her net profit over her lifetime, make sure you are figuring the amounts of feed in there. Along with all the basics like fuel, property taxes, so on so forth.

My guess is your way would look pretty scary. You might be a really good guy, but on the Internet you act like the 15yr old boy who is trying to gain acceptance by being a little shithead. And it's kind of hard to ignore you since you post everywhere.

 

[Ebenezer]

I really do not believe that there is a "let em eat dirt" group on CT. That is a strawman argument to try to talk big. But I really do believe in moderation. That word is not in BH's replies, ...EVER. It's always tiny, huge, starved, fed, my way, no way, SAV, junk, 110+ pounds, calving ease, obese, deer ... That is not the way to discuss rationally. That is a problem. And profit seems to be a hope based on high sale prices and future years.

A direct question: Wye fed to get big cattle? Yes. When the creepfeeding stopped the extreme improvements and outstanding cattle did, too. The same genetics today produce cattle that are not so commercially useful due to small size and less growth. And the genetic selection at Wye lead them to terminal type sires that did not boost the renown female functions. Take note of how many heifers are retained on an annual basis and how many sale pairs show up in the catalogs. Or just ask them their breed back % as first calf heifers. So the early "wins" lead to later losses. The Wye buyers are not the mainstream multitude anymore. Not saying that a Wye bred animal cannot be used as a tool but there is no widespread use and acceptance of 100% Wye left except in herds of devoted Wye-ites.

We either learn from history or repeat history.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Couldn't get these two guys to pose right... they're pretty much full brothers, not a whole lot of age difference.. 40 lb birthweight difference though

You get no consistency using a crossbred bull on crossbred cows. Nesikep your calves look a lot better than what I expected, but a good pure bred bull will do wonders for your consistency.

Consistent cow families make consistent calves. PB or crosses. Knowledge of those families and what works and what doesn't and the vision to see how it all works makes you a breeder.

I'm no breeder but I do a lot of experiments and try to pay attention. I have a mixed herd of purebreds to sale barn queens, my pastures look like a box of crayons. But using Angus bulls I'll have a 99% black calf crop. The only cows I'm not positive about what color the calves will be is the Hereford X, and the Charlois X cows. But the majority will be black, a few will have a white face and one might be a smokey. No white feet, tail, or spots anywhere except for the head.

 

[Silver]

There is a lot more important factors in consistency than colour.

 

[TCRanch]

Branded

Your cows are big, I have not been over to see them on the ground but I don't think they are "morbidly obese". They certainly carry a lot of condition and I think you are feeding them grain when you should not be. I totally agree with the speaker in that video that cattle need proper nutrition.

I had a buyer here on Saturday who bought one bred cow, 2 bulls and 5 heifers. One of the heifers he bought was the Broadway that had a birthweight of 112 pounds. You may remember the picture of her that I posted. The guy was anxious to get a heifer that size. They have over 300 cows and said they range up to 1900 pounds. His preference in a cow is 1450 to 1500 pounds but he does not shy away from larger cows.

In my experience, calves that start out at say 64 pounds, never catch up with the bigger calves.

Have you ever kept one, let her realize her potential? In the 1st pic, one of these cows was a 40 lb. preemie/subsequent orphan. In the 2nd pic, one of them was a 40 lb. 8 oz. preemie/subsequent orphan. Can you tell? (P.S. post image generally doesn't work for me so I have to copy the link).
https://i.postimg.cc/Z9ZbLFv4/IMG-20190510-081530864-HDR.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GTvgzYyn/IMG-20190510-085427276-HDR.jpg

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

But, having a preemie does not fit into this discussion. A preemie is little because of days of gestation, not genetics. If you are able to save and grow a preemie, they should grow to their GENETIC potential.
If your cows produced 40# calves at full gestation, then there is no way in He!! they will grow on a consistent basis. Heck, even my twins weigh at least 70# +.
BH tends to go overboard in his statements. "I" think he feeds too much grain, but I am a firm believer in feeding a cow what she needs to be in good BCS (5-7), breed right back & raise a whopping good calf. I also have 100# calves - cows spit them out like nothing - but - I castrate all bulls that have 100+ BW. Do I think they will be a hard calving bull? NO
But, if they see his BW on his papers and have 1 calving problem (which is probably the COWS fault), my reputation goes in the toilet. One unhappy customer tells more people WHY he is unhappy, then any satisfied customer. But, then again, I do not rely on bull sales for my profit.
I don't think anyone on this board believes in "letting cattle eat dirt". Some believe in making them work harder than others, but it all depends on LOCATION and resources.

 

[Bright Raven]

Branded

Your cows are big, I have not been over to see them on the ground but I don't think they are "morbidly obese". They certainly carry a lot of condition and I think you are feeding them grain when you should not be. I totally agree with the speaker in that video that cattle need proper nutrition.

I had a buyer here on Saturday who bought one bred cow, 2 bulls and 5 heifers. One of the heifers he bought was the Broadway that had a birthweight of 112 pounds. You may remember the picture of her that I posted. The guy was anxious to get a heifer that size. They have over 300 cows and said they range up to 1900 pounds. His preference in a cow is 1450 to 1500 pounds but he does not shy away from larger cows.

In my experience, calves that start out at say 64 pounds, never catch up with the bigger calves.

Have you ever kept one, let her realize her potential? In the 1st pic, one of these cows was a 40 lb. preemie/subsequent orphan. In the 2nd pic, one of them was a 40 lb. 8 oz. preemie/subsequent orphan. Can you tell? (P.S. post image generally doesn't work for me so I have to copy the link).
https://i.postimg.cc/Z9ZbLFv4/IMG-20190510-081530864-HDR.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/GTvgzYyn/IMG-20190510-085427276-HDR.jpg

I agree with Jeanne. Comparing growth potential between a calf that goes full term and a calf that does not go full term is apples to oranges.

My calves are Simmental and my average gestation term is 283 days. From memory, I would stay with my original statement: full term calves that are in the 70 pound range never seem to catch the full term calves that fall in the 90 pound range.

Now, it is likely genetics because those bigger calves at birth are sired by bulls that have more growth potential because they are not likely to be calving ease.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Brook hill, I'd really like to see some numbers from your operation. Like all your input costs, and your net profit per calf. And then pick your best cow and figure up her net profit over her lifetime, make sure you are figuring the amounts of feed in there. Along with all the basics like fuel, property taxes, so on so forth.

My guess is your way would look pretty scary. You might be a really good guy, but on the Internet you act like the 15yr old boy who is trying to gain acceptance by being a little be nice. And it's kind of hard to ignore you since you post everywhere.

I appreciate your fatherly remarks.

Seriously, would anyone on here, or elsewhere turn over their financials to you for perusal?

If I were running a strictly commercial operation with mix breed genetics, then I would probably invest all my money in a perimeter fence, and say "good luck y'all" The inputs would be minimal at best. The cheapest of everything, minerals, hay, etc. Those that don't make it, oh well.

However, that is not the operation that I am running. I'm not dealing with razor thin margins, I'm not dealing in a situation whereby when the trailer backs up to my operation, I'm at their mercy. What you are describing is a commodity business. You need economies of scale to eke out a living.

Unlike a lot of people throwing in the towel and folding their cards, I'm not leasing my land out so that a larger operator can run cattle on my farm. I'm not renting out uteruses. I'm not having to sell my replacement heifers just to keep the lights on, and I definitely don't starve my cattle to make the numbers work. S&P 500 companies fire people, then post higher quarterly earnings because they make the remaining people take pay cuts and work harder, and the stock pops, that's not how we roll at Branded. Our gals are relaxed and doing what they are supposed to, getting rare genetics on the ground safely without drama.

Again, I'm not going to share business details with you, because I prefer the Trump approach to disclosure when it comes to you guys. But in the interest of satisfying you, I will say this, my margins are entirely different than those of a commercial operation. Let's say I sell a cow/calf pair. She is of above-average stock, carrying an SAV Raindance calf inside her, bred with sexed semen, and the calf at her side is, let's say a proven son of Sydgen Enhance that someone can use as a herd sire. All the animals sold are DNA tested and proven for parentage. Now let's say you compare that to a cow-calf pair, mystery cow is bred to mystery bull, and has mystery bull calf at her side. Oh, and don't forget, they look like a Calico cat. Do you really think those two pairs will bring the same amount of money? All things being equal? C'mon you are smarter than that, I hope! A box of Cuban Montecristo's sell for a lot more than a pack of Swishers from the gas station.

Did you know that a registered, proven pair eats about the same and takes about the same land as mystery pair, yet the margins are far far better? There is a phrase called working smarter, not harder. It's up to you if you want to adhere to it.

You may not know this, but luxury brands did not go out of business in 2008, in fact, their sales soared. It was the Sears and Kmarts that were shellacked. It's a tale as old as time. Duesenberg and Packard did exceptionally well during the Great Depression, while people were lined up at soup kitchens. Packard actually fell apart when they tried to appeal to the masses. You probably didn't want a history lesson, but look at Cadillac and Lincoln. They were once the standard for quality worldwide, but now, they are super nice vehicles, but they will never have the name that Mercedes or Bentley commands.

I feel bad that I have to explain this to you like a child, but I hope this clears things up somewhat. Nothing personal, but sometimes it takes nothing short of a diagram to point out what should be obvious.

Another thing that is crazy, I was speaking with Bright Raven yesterday about bulls versus heifers and the price they command. I really wouldn't care if I ever had another bull born out here, they are basically a byproduct in many ways. I have a lot of demand for bred heifers, and by that, I mean bred AI, sexed semen, with a clear understanding that a cleanup bull is not the Daddy. If I had 200 registered heifers to sell, all bred to sexed SAV Raindance semen, I could move them in a week at a premium, not the case with 200 bulls whereby I would be at the mercy of the market. Work smart, not hard.

 

[CattleMan1920]

But, having a preemie does not fit into this discussion. A preemie is little because of days of gestation, not genetics. If you are able to save and grow a preemie, they should grow to their GENETIC potential.
If your cows produced 40# calves at full gestation, then there is no way in He!! they will grow on a consistent basis. Heck, even my twins weigh at least 70# +.
BH tends to go overboard in his statements. "I" think he feeds too much grain, but I am a firm believer in feeding a cow what she needs to be in good BCS (5-7), breed right back & raise a whopping good calf. I also have 100# calves - cows spit them out like nothing - but - I castrate all bulls that have 100+ BW. Do I think they will be a hard calving bull? NO
But, if they see his BW on his papers and have 1 calving problem (which is probably the COWS fault), my reputation goes in the toilet. One unhappy customer tells more people WHY he is unhappy, then any satisfied customer. But, then again, I do not rely on bull sales for my profit.
I don't think anyone on this board believes in "letting cattle eat dirt". Some believe in making them work harder than others, but it all depends on LOCATION and resources.

There are plenty of herds that I see that need a big, terminal sire on their cows. The stacking of high CED, low BW bulls is a trainwreck in the making. I won't be part of that program.

Interesting story, my neighbor had a bull he purchased from an Angus breeder in Kentucky. A son of EXAR Denver 2002B and Sandpoint Formosa. He bragged about it's calving ease, and when he started having calves on the ground, they all looked like tanks, he was beaming. I told him, you should DNA test your bull and get even more accurate numbers. He did so and his +8 CED bull went to a +1. He was mortified and wanted to rid himself of the bull. I asked him "why do you care, look at these calves, they look rocking" He said, I don't want to be pulling calves, I asked him, "how many did you lose or have to pull this year?" he said "None"

He was clearly afraid of the CED boogeyman when he had clear proof in front of his eyes that his +1 bull did a terrific job for him. He probably made more off those steers on a relative basis, than he had ever made on any calf crop he ever produced.

 

[Son of Butch]

my cattle.... have the structure to handle their 2000 pound weights.
I've basically either read, been told, or have witnessed so many ill-fated ideas about how to raise cattle...

We don't apologize for 100-pound birth weights.
You only get one chance to get it right.... Why screw it up?

Are you sure you're not raising Simmentals?
Are you sure "not apologizing" for selling bulls siring "100 lb angus" calves is "getting it right"?

1977 black angus average birth weight 70 lbs
40 years later
2017 black angus average birth weight 76 lbs with bull calves averaging 78 lbs.

1996 MARC data Clay Center, Nebraska
hereford-angus bw 78.1 lbs
hereford-angus x Charolais sires bw 90.6 lbs

4% calf losses within 24 hrs on cows requiring little to no assistance
16% calf loss within 24 hrs when assistance was required
Calf mortality increased 0.35% for each pound of increase in birth weight.
70 day breeding season pregnancy rate 16% lower (69% vs 85%) in cows requiring assistance.

A test herd in Miles City, Montana reported 57% of all calf losses were due to dysctocia.

Top 1% angus carcass weights are 35 lbs heavier than breed average carcass weights.
IF you retain ownership it would take at least 22 top 1% steers just to replace $ loss of each
dead calf over the expected 4% average death loss with 78 lb calves.
With 100 lb bws it is next to impossible to keep calf death rate below 7% on 100 cows
and double digit losses would not be unexpected.

Even IF 4 out of 5 times a 100 pound calf is no trouble that 5th time gets awfully expensive.
Doesn't it?

 

[sim.-ang.king]

There you go again Butch, letting data get in the way of a story.