Fescue

[Banjo]

I think it was Kit Pharo that said they try to force out 10 to 15% of their cow herd every year.....by subjecting them to tough conditions.

Why not do the same with children. I saw a story once where a guy put his toddler out in a snow storm unclothed to see if he could make it. I think the authorities stepped in upon the kid's behalf.

There is a herd near me, that for all practical purposes has to work overtime to stay alive, pasture as low as a putting green, thank goodness for the weeds and fence line brush to keep them going. They are alive, you can say that, but you probably wouldn't bid jack sh.t for them in an auction ring. Maybe to buy them and put them out of their misery. Poor things. I look away as I drive past them.

Something tells me that they are on the "survival of the fittest" plan, and minerals are an afterthought.

Is this guy producing superior genetics through calorie deprivation and a anti-mineral/vaccine plan? Or is he producing dog food?

I'm not promoting PCC... but they have done a great job marketing their grassfed bulls on very little inputs. And their policy of forcing out 10 to 15% of the herd is basically culling those that don't breed back on time or raise a great calf. More of us need to do that I'm sure.
We should all take a comprehensive forage sample occasionally that showed the levels of essential nutrients in our forage.
I've never done it but am going to.

 

[True Grit Farms]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

That is a point worth expanding on. There are certainly environments where the soils and geological history provide all the essential nutrients. But they are rare indeed. Almost every environment is missing one or more essential elements for example , selenium occurs in extremely low levels here.

One advantage you have, it is like what I saw in Montana - you don't get the kind of extreme lush blossom of spring grasses we do in Kentucky. Where the grass is almost 90 % water. It is like "power washing" the GI tract. The weeks of lush grass and loose feces can decrease the uptake of minerals. Again, intake is what they consume. Uptake is what they absorb and get into the cellular level.

Since we are in an environment where there is low levels of Selenium, copper or magnesium to satisfy the essential needs of the biological functions, the cows health is going to be compromised and performance is going to suffer. In the case of some essential minerals like magnesium - they can die from grass tetany.

The Rocky Mountain area is a relatively young geological environment, rich in elements we have lost after 100s of millions of years of erosion and leaching.

This brings up a side note - regardless of culling there is no such thing as a mammalian biological unit that can carry on physiological functions without essential minerals. In example, there are no cows that have evolved a way to carry oxygen without iron. Culling cures some ills but it does not change the process of respiration and cellular function that is common to all life on the planet.

Might as well add middle Florida into your nutrient rich geological area. The largest herd of cattle in the country at 44 thousand head has no mineral program and a few other ranches that only run 5 to 10 thousand head have no mineral program. So it must be a phenomenal nutrient rich area also. What doesn't work for some works for others.

 

[Bright Raven]

I would feed mineral if I had reason to.

That is a point worth expanding on. There are certainly environments where the soils and geological history provide all the essential nutrients. But they are rare indeed. Almost every environment is missing one or more essential elements for example , selenium occurs in extremely low levels here.

One advantage you have, it is like what I saw in Montana - you don't get the kind of extreme lush blossom of spring grasses we do in Kentucky. Where the grass is almost 90 % water. It is like "power washing" the GI tract. The weeks of lush grass and loose feces can decrease the uptake of minerals. Again, intake is what they consume. Uptake is what they absorb and get into the cellular level.

Since we are in an environment where there is low levels of Selenium, copper or magnesium to satisfy the essential needs of the biological functions, the cows health is going to be compromised and performance is going to suffer. In the case of some essential minerals like magnesium - they can die from grass tetany.

The Rocky Mountain area is a relatively young geological environment, rich in elements we have lost after 100s of millions of years of erosion and leaching.

This brings up a side note - regardless of culling there is no such thing as a mammalian biological unit that can carry on physiological functions without essential minerals. In example, there are no cows that have evolved a way to carry oxygen without iron. Culling cures some ills but it does not change the process of respiration and cellular function that is common to all life on the planet.

Might as well add middle Florida into your nutrient rich geological area. The largest herd of cattle in the country at 44 thousand head has no mineral program and a few other ranches that only run 5 to 10 thousand head have no mineral program. So it must be a phenomenal nutrient rich area also. What doesn't work for some works for others.

Florida would not be an area that I would expect to be "mineral" rich. It is primarily ancient limestone as the parent material or bedrock.

It also is a function of vegetation. Some forages pull up and concentrate minerals in the plant material.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Feeding good mineral to deer is proven to make their antlers grow. The biggest racked bucks in the country are in the Midwest? And the smallest racked bucks call Florida their home? Some things in life just don't add up.

 

[Ebenezer]

This is MY picture I took and sent to the extension. Notice the seed heads look like mouse poop:



We are known to have the HOTTEST (infected) fescue around! The extension is right down the road from us, and they test their fescue often (for studies and such).

Ebenezer, funny you should mention the Graham Angus program. If it is the same, they sold out in the drought, I think 2012? We bought a cow calf pair online, because they were cheap. The cow made it ONE year before she shipped her for infertility, and the heifer calf on her side lasted just two calvings (she was a fescue cow for sure! Always in the pond, did not lose hair). We have a half blood cow, grandaughter from the orignal cow. She seems to be fine and throws an AI calf each fall. One of my best.

Graham stopped for a multitude of reasons. Their final years were based on heavy outcrossing to breed leading bulls and the herd lost a lot including adaptation and fertility. "Terminal" has a meaning and an affect. Then a lot of the family was sick or dead. And in the big picture the cattle were an interest but merely a minor fraction of the businesses. The one downfall they had was that few if any bulls were ever collected and when the fertility was gone they had to resort to buying in heifers.

I choose to learn from the history of others than to repeat their steps so I study programs and lines. At one time they were the top of their game and folks paid well to get their animals. Sometimes I wish I could turn back time and pick up a few to see if they were as good as they seemed. But in reality it is sift the wheat and throw away the chaff. :|

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Graham stopped for a multitude of reasons. Their final years were based on heavy outcrossing to breed leading bulls and the herd lost a lot including adaptation and fertility. "Terminal" has a meaning and an affect. Then a lot of the family was sick or dead. And in the big picture the cattle were an interest but merely a minor fraction of the businesses. The one downfall they had was that few if any bulls were ever collected and when the fertility was gone they had to resort to buying in heifers.

Now that I remember, we paid $1000 for the pair, she was a TC Freedom daughter, and her days old heifer calf was advertised as a "BC Big Daddy", which was a new, hot Angus bull of the time. When the papers arrived, the calf was registered as a SAV Pioneer, but I was never told she had a different sire. Many years later, and this heifer had two AI sired calves for me, AAA sent us a letter with a notice that her papers were pulled. I am guessing that the calf was DNA'd before selling and did not test to the sire (why else would they change it years later)? They pulled her papers, I think. When I search for her registration on the AAA web site, it comes back empty (17000030 - GRAHAMS PIONEER 97A), but I can find her dam (15724444). I can find her on the ASA herdbook (https://herdbook.org/simmapp/action...tSubmit_displayAnimal=T&animalNumber=2722173), since we registered two of her half blood calves. Sad thing is, we sold her to slaughter before we got the AAA notice, and she had a bull that was sold for breeding and we have her daughter (sired by Beef Maker) still producing in our herd (she has had 4 calves for us, and will have her 5th this fall). So, the simm daughter is still half angus, we just do not know a quarter of that half (sire)....
I heard the paperwork on the Graham cattle was a mess! Lots of people ended up with something different than advertised. We made money on it, since the cow sold a few years later for the purchase price (sold her as a bred in a special cow sale - she was a huge cow that would not stick to AI for us so we sold her) and we had her daughter still. The cow seemed fine on the fescue, it was the daughter (the Pioneer) that struggled with fescue. She came in open at 3 and raising her second calf, so she went to the stockyards (no bull exposure, just AI attempts).

 

[SmokinM]

BR that is some pretty impressive mineral intake/cost numbers. Is that free choice year round using it as your high mag in the spring? Your forage quality I am sure helps that but still pretty good.

For those clipping fescue what height do you find works best for regrowth and grazing utilization? For the first time in a long while with our new farm I have more grass in my pastures than in my hay field.

 

[Bright Raven]

BR that is some pretty impressive mineral intake/cost numbers. Is that free choice year round using it as your high mag in the spring? Your forage quality I am sure helps that but still pretty good.

For those clipping fescue what height do you find works best for regrowth and grazing utilization? For the first time in a long while with our new farm I have more grass in my pastures than in my hay field.

Thank you. The intake is above the expected intake provided by VitaFerm. The recommended intake is .4 ounces per head per day. Some of that excess that I am experiencing is waste.

I keep it available year round.
I use VitaFerm Heat from June 1 until September 1
I use VitaFerm Concept-Aid 8/S from September 1 until January 1
I use VitaFerm Concept-Aid Hi Mag from January 1 until June 1

I clip at about 7 inches above the ground. The following picture does not capture the quality of the forage on the farm. This is the best forage I have seen since I bought the farm in 2003.

 

[SmokinM]

Thanks I am going to check into that mineral. Those fields do look great.

 

[kenny thomas]

I have clipped maybe 25 acres so far that hasnt had a cow on it since early April. Clipping the seedhead down to 10-12" and trying to get as little of the leaf as i can.

 

[MrSmith]

I have clipped maybe 25 acres so far that hasnt had a cow on it since early April. Clipping the seedhead down to 10-12" and trying to get as little of the leaf as i can.

Do you have any issue with the tall stems aggravating their eyes? Pinkeye?
I recently clipped some of mine tall and had some concerns.

 

[Hootowl]

I have clipped maybe 25 acres so far that hasnt had a cow on it since early April. Clipping the seedhead down to 10-12" and trying to get as little of the leaf as i can.

Do you have any issue with the tall stems aggravating their eyes? Pinkeye?
I recently clipped some of mine tall and had some concerns.

I have not had any issues yet but they have been on the first paddock that I clipped for the last 2 days. I need to cut slightly lower maybe but it's been dry so I held the hog up high.

 

[MrSmith]

Thanks.
Also are you all harrowing or dragging after you clip?

 

[Ebenezer]

I have clipped maybe 25 acres so far that hasnt had a cow on it since early April. Clipping the seedhead down to 10-12" and trying to get as little of the leaf as i can.

Do you have any issue with the tall stems aggravating their eyes? Pinkeye?
I recently clipped some of mine tall and had some concerns.

We do not clip seedheads just to clip seedheads. One rotation is the cows eating seedheads plus what else they can get. I ran some on farm tests a few years ago and clipped some and left some unclipped. There was more regrowth in rotational grazing with the unclipped areas into dry periods and I assume the taller stems provide buffer to wind and sun while allowing plants to make better use of the dew. We have not had any pinkeye in 10+ years. Our environment is not the easiest so it is a learn to save or a way to spend situation. We run on a commercial type model.

 

[kenny thomas]

Thanks.
Also are you all harrowing or dragging after you clip?

Never seen anyone do either here. For what reason would you do either?

 

[Banjo]

If the residue is very thick.....it will roll up on you and you will just have rolled up wads of grass everywhere....not good.
If its thin you might could harrow some.
If you feel the need to drag it...do it before you clip. But there is no better way to learn what to do and not do than to just do it.

 

[Banjo]

Thanks.
Also are you all harrowing or dragging after you clip?

Never seen anyone do either here. For what reason would you do either?

I think its mostly done to scatter manure piles.
My opinion is ....that if you have manure piles that won't breakdown then you have other issues that need to be addressed.

 

[kenny thomas]

Thanks.
Also are you all harrowing or dragging after you clip?

Never seen anyone do either here. For what reason would you do either?

I think its mostly done to scatter manure piles.
My opinion is ....that if you have manure piles that won't breakdown then you have other issues that need to be addressed.

I don't drag during the growing season. My cows are still squirting like it was April. It's a result of pasture rotation and high protein.
Even if the piles become firm the dung Beatles take care of them pretty quick in hot weather

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Dragging spreads the piles kind of like spreading fertilize. I just use a tire drag.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Dragging spreads the piles kind of like spreading fertilize. I just use a tire drag.

That's a good practice.