Feeding calves for weaning/ holding

[MurraysMutts]

@Brute 23 thanks for doing this project and it's summaries! I really enjoyed it.

Did u mention how many head you were feeding? What was total dollars in feed for the 3 months? Did u implant?

I'm only feeding my 3 weights 2 or 3 times a week. But mine are on good spring grass. We've had plenty of rain as well. If there is an advantage to a feeder, I may consider it. I'm also holding mine longer. So there's that. I'm trying to buy uniform calves. I kind of screwed that up with the 2 off colored heifers. But they brought my average cost per head down. I've an opportunity to graze some more (5 or 6 calves) at a neighbors place. I'm thinking I NEED to buy black heifers to match the ones I have. My original thought was steers/bulls. But I can make my group larger at sale time with all heifers.

Again. I/we do appreciate the time and effort you've dedicated to this venture. This is stuff folks do every day for a living. Us new guys can sure benefit from your knowledge and learning curve on this.

 

[Brute 23]

@Brute 23 thanks for doing this project and it's summaries! I really enjoyed it.

Did u mention how many head you were feeding? What was total dollars in feed for the 3 months? Did u implant?

I'm only feeding my 3 weights 2 or 3 times a week. But mine are on good spring grass. We've had plenty of rain as well. If there is an advantage to a feeder, I may consider it. I'm also holding mine longer. So there's that. I'm trying to buy uniform calves. I kind of screwed that up with the 2 off colored heifers. But they brought my average cost per head down. I've an opportunity to graze some more (5 or 6 calves) at a neighbors place. I'm thinking I NEED to buy black heifers to match the ones I have. My original thought was steers/bulls. But I can make my group larger at sale time with all heifers.

Again. I/we do appreciate the time and effort you've dedicated to this venture. This is stuff folks do every day for a living. Us new guys can sure benefit from your knowledge and learning curve on this.

I am still doing numbers but I can see pretty clearly that I would not do heifers like this.

If I go to the sort function on my table and sort by sale price, lowest to highest, with the exception of one or two outliers, it will almost split perfectly, heifers vs strs. The heifers, will have more weight, a lower price per pound, and a lower sale price, but the same expenses. You can see it in the avgs I posted. They may be cheaper up front, but they are not a better value, for this scenario. No matter how many pounds you put on that heifer, you are leaving $0.30/lb or what ever the number is, on the table every time.

I'm sure there is more to it and maybe a way to make up for that but numbers wise, that is what it looks like. That would lead me back to saying I would run heifers on grass with few inputs and just get what you can get, pounds wise. Time may be cheaper than feed with them. Buy some steers too and do a comparison for us and see what you think. LoL

I have a friend who bought a group of calves and is getting their butts handed to them right now. I'm not sure the details but it sounds like who or where ever they bought the calves from was suppose to vaccinate them. It sounded like maybe the AB did it because they said it was easier to get them to do it and cheaper while they had them. This is their 2nd group, I believe. They have been fighting sick calves the whole time. It sounded like they don't trust the vacs were done correctly but then again they are further north and have been having bad weather swings. The calves were all like around #500 though, also. They are doing more of a feedlot set up with little pasture for them. I'm waiting for more details but they had just got done doctoring calves that evening and I could sense the frustration. It didn't seem like a good time to ask a lot of questions.

No we did not implant. I have gotten real mixed reviews on that. I have a neighbor that swears by them but when you look at studies the gains weren't there. You had to do it multiple times though the entire cycle, which most of us don't own them for, and even then the actual money made was minimal when you factored in the price of the product. You had to be moving hundreds of calves to make it worth while, from the numbers they showed.

24 head. Its was split 50-50 hfs vs strs. $5029.95 in feed. $5891.84 total costs

Total
$1,050.00	Value @ Hold	(per head)
$1,557.00	Avg Sale Price	(per head)
$507.00	Gross	(per head)
$245.49	Expenses	(per head)
$261.51	Net	(per head)
$6,276.17	Total Profit	(group)

 

[puzzled in oregon]

Is it fair to assume that the heifers eat as much as the steers ?

 

[Brute 23]

I also want to thank every one like Greek, I think Lucky, and a lot of yall that chimed in through out this process that I know I am missing. I didn't have any previous experience doing some thing like this in this scenario. Every thing from the potential gains, feeds, talking about the markets in the cattle sales section, it was all helpful. Pretty much every thing that was mentioned was dead on and it shows that yall have done this before. LoL Its a testament to this board that if you follow the right people's advice, it works. Don't get side tracked by these characters that talk the loudest and put on the best show. Find these people that are doing this every day and have no problem showing it, if you ask.

Back in the fall I asked some one that was talking about holding their calves details. I think it was Lucky but I could be wrong. I could sense your hesitancy because you thought it was an argument coming, but you played along. That discussion with who ever it was, on here, sparked this whole deal.

 

[Brute 23]

Is it fair to assume that the heifers eat as much as the steers ?

That is a good question for some one who feeds cattle way more than me. Hopefully some one else can chime in on that.

 

[kenny thomas]

Making good money on heifers requires load lots. Only a few cents difference in heifers vs steers in load lots.

 

[Brute 23]

That is one area I was disappointed in and that was light heifers. There were 5-6 500ish pound heifers that were black mots that did not bring the money I thought they should have. When I talked about cutting the bottom end of they would have been in that group. I seriously thought about holding them through the summer and selling them as replacements in the fall. The couple hundred dollars more I thought they were worth each didn't justify the time. Again, with rain I could have turned them out and checked back on them in Sept and it would have been fine. If it had turned dry this summer, they would have been an albatross around my kneck.

I was already getting a lot of questions about time/worth, even on this deal.

 

[puzzled in oregon]

There are lots of variables. I really have no experience with this type of project,
but was impressed with the numbers. Thank you for sharing

 

[Dave]

This did get me thinking. When we ship the one and done cows that is done at B's corral. He has a fairly good size scale. After we ship the cows we haul the calves to my place. We could weigh the calves. And then we will get the weight when they sell. Calves get weaned in mid August and turned out on hay field regrowth. No feed. Just grass hay in the corral for 4 or 5 days until they quit bawling. When the grass is gone so are the calves. That is about 60-75 days post weaning.

 

[MurraysMutts]

I am still doing numbers but I can see pretty clearly that I would not do heifers like this.

If I go to the sort function on my table and sort by sale price, lowest to highest, with the exception of one or two outliers, it will almost split perfectly, heifers vs strs. The heifers, will have more weight, a lower price per pound, and a lower sale price, but the same expenses. You can see it in the avgs I posted. They may be cheaper up front, but they are not a better value, for this scenario. No matter how many pounds you put on that heifer, you are leaving $0.30/lb or what ever the number is, on the table every time.

I'm sure there is more to it and maybe a way to make up for that but numbers wise, that is what it looks like. That would lead me back to saying I would run heifers on grass with few inputs and just get what you can get, pounds wise. Time may be cheaper than feed with them. Buy some steers too and do a comparison for us and see what you think. LoL

I have a friend who bought a group of calves and is getting their butts handed to them right now. I'm not sure the details but it sounds like who or where ever they bought the calves from was suppose to vaccinate them. It sounded like maybe the AB did it because they said it was easier to get them to do it and cheaper while they had them. This is their 2nd group, I believe. They have been fighting sick calves the whole time. It sounded like they don't trust the vacs were done correctly but then again they are further north and have been having bad weather swings. The calves were all like around #500 though, also. They are doing more of a feedlot set up with little pasture for them. I'm waiting for more details but they had just got done doctoring calves that evening and I could sense the frustration. It didn't seem like a good time to ask a lot of questions.

No we did not implant. I have gotten real mixed reviews on that. I have a neighbor that swears by them but when you look at studies the gains weren't there. You had to do it multiple times though the entire cycle, which most of us don't own them for, and even then the actual money made was minimal when you factored in the price of the product. You had to be moving hundreds of calves to make it worth while, from the numbers they showed.

24 head. Its was split 50-50 hfs vs strs. $5029.95 in feed. $5891.84 total costs

Total
$1,050.00	Value @ Hold	(per head)
$1,557.00	Avg Sale Price	(per head)
$507.00	Gross	(per head)
$245.49	Expenses	(per head)
$261.51	Net	(per head)
$6,276.17	Total Profit	(group)

I'm hoping for a surge in heifer prices this fall. Females are in short supply. Or getting to be in short supply anyway.

I can't buy an unweaned 3 wt bull calf for 1050 bucks. No way no how. Not anything of any quality anyway. However ya got me wondering if I should buy some even at 1200 bucks. We will see what happens at the sale. Gonna try and haul that calfless cow this evening and buy a few calves tomorrow

 

[bird dog]

This did get me thinking. When we ship the one and done cows that is done at B's corral. He has a fairly good size scale. After we ship the cows we haul the calves to my place. We could weigh the calves. And then we will get the weight when they sell. Calves get weaned in mid August and turned out on hay field regrowth. No feed. Just grass hay in the corral for 4 or 5 days until they quit bawling. When the grass is gone so are the calves. That is about 60-75 days post weaning.

That would be interesting Dave. On straight grass like that, they sure won't shrink much. I would bet 1.375 lbs per day gain.

 

[Lucky]

@Brute 23 I'm really glad you did this and kept up with the numbers the way you did. Everytime we tell someone if they want to improve profits on the ranch they need to start retaining or backgrounding their calves we get the same old crazy look. The two reasons we get are #1 it cost money and #2 lower weight calves bring more per pound than heavier calves. Both of these are true but the cowculator doesn't lie.

One thing you can really see when backgrounding is how a defined breeding season helps and the tighter the calves the better. We always have a big end and a lighter end like you did. There's a huge difference in a calf born day 1 and one born day 90 of a 90 day breeding cycle. You can't make this difference up if selling all at the same time either. We are working to tighten the calves up now. The other thing you mentioned was poor performers. That's another tough one that could take a lifetime to chase down. Quality cows matter but the price tag scares most away.

 

[Dave]

That would be interesting Dave. On straight grass like that, they sure won't shrink much. I would bet 1.375 lbs per day gain.

B's scale is big enough to weigh 12 or more at a time. So just weighing them as we push them in wouldn't take much time. Sorting by owner, sex, and size would give a person more information but would take more time. Hmmm I am going to be talking to B about this idea.

These calves are pretty hard because of the terrain they grow up on. Not the butter ball milk fat calves that you see coming off flat ground with lots of lush grass. Just based on eye ball I don't see them shrinking at weaning like some people claim.

 

[Lucky]

Making good money on heifers requires load lots. Only a few cents difference in heifers vs steers in load lots.

Kenny, heifers are a tough deal. We guarantee ours open and they generally bring a dime back from the steers. I think the best we've done is 7 cents back. When I wasn't guaranteeing them they'd bring 20 cents back. This year was different and I don't think we did as well even thought they were all open.

My old boss used to say never cuss a rain or a heifer calf cuz they'll both make you money.

 

[kenny thomas]

Kenny, heifers are a tough deal. We guarantee ours open and they generally bring a dime back from the steers. I think the best we've done is 7 cents back. When I wasn't guaranteeing them they'd bring 20 cents back. This year was different and I don't think we did as well even thought they were all open.

My old boss used to say never cuss a rain or a heifer calf cuz they'll both make you money.

Are you selling them as load lots? We loaded 2 tractor trailer loads last Friday. Paid $3 per head to have them preg checked even though they had been given Lute and Dex at weaning.
Mixed color but mostly black load weighing 776 brought 2.36 after shrink and slide. Load of all black brought 2.40 at same weight. These sold the week before on video during our regular sale.

 

[Warren Allison]

I'm hoping for a surge in heifer prices this fall. Females are in short supply. Or getting to be in short supply anyway.

I have been in a few conversations like that the past couple of weeks.... online, at sales, at ropings and pennings, etc. Consensus is while steers may stay where they are for a while, there is no way for them to go but down. If they get any higher, people are going to quit eating as much beef. But so many cows have been, and are being, slaughtered.... that there is about to be a shortage of brood stock. Heifers, open or bred, bred cows, pairs , and 3 n 1s are all brining more and more each week. 2 producers I know that had intended on breeding their cows back with sexed for male semen, have told Dan to order sexed for female semen. Clay bought 3 out of those 7 reg Red Char bred heifers I got last month. He was going to AI them with BH sexed for male semen. He gave $3200 for them and has been offered $4500 for the pairs ( All 7 were bred to reg Red Char with sexed semen to produce heifer calves). He now plans on AI-ing his 3 back with sexed for heifer, Red Char semen.

The man that raises the reverse black baldies, got the other 4. He was going to breed them to his Black Hereford bull, but he too has decided to breed them back with Red Char sexed for female semen. When he sold out last month, Clay kept 2 reg Brangus cows and a black BM cow, the Red Angus x Charbray and the red Brangus x Char heifers he got from Dan a year or so ago and the Brangus bull he got from me in February. But, he is gonna take that bull down to the Kudzu place Friday, and AI any those 5 not already bred with sexed for female semen now. And , that is what I am gonna do with those 8 Brahmas I bought yesterday...breed then for f1 Black Hereford and f1 Red Char heifer calves.

I always think it is foolish to retain heifers for your own brood cows but those who have this year, may be sitting on a gold mine if they decide to sell them as open long yearlings later on.

My thoughts on it are: I don't think I would AI my entire commercial beef herd for heifer calves Steers neither, as far as that goes, I think I would use regular semen, or just use bulls, and get some heifers and steers. I think that in the coming year or maybe 2, your heifer calves will sell as well as the steers. I just wouldn't put all of my eggs in one basket.

 

[Lucky]

Are you selling them as load lots? We loaded 2 tractor trailer loads last Friday. Paid $3 per head to have them preg checked even though they had been given Lute and Dex at weaning.
Mixed color but mostly black load weighing 776 brought 2.36 after shrink and slide. Load of all black brought 2.40 at same weight. These sold the week before on video during our regular sale.

We send 1 truck load of mixed heifers & steers every year. They sort and sell them in groups at the sale. We guarantee them open and it's up to the buyer to preg them. Anything that's bred sells the next day at the cow sell. We've had 2 come up bred so far. The bred ones sell for less but not much.

It's funny with these high prices We've been having it's harder to make money by backgrounding. The 5 weight steers are bringing so much you can't make as much getting them to 700 and the heifer side seems to be taking a harder hit than normal. This is just what I've noticed in our area.

 

[clovlanfarms]

@Brute 23 thanks for doing this project and it's summaries! I really enjoyed it.

Did u mention how many head you were feeding? What was total dollars in feed for the 3 months? Did u implant?

I'm only feeding my 3 weights 2 or 3 times a week. But mine are on good spring grass. We've had plenty of rain as well. If there is an advantage to a feeder, I may consider it. I'm also holding mine longer. So there's that. I'm trying to buy uniform calves. I kind of screwed that up with the 2 off colored heifers. But they brought my average cost per head down. I've an opportunity to graze some more (5 or 6 calves) at a neighbors place. I'm thinking I NEED to buy black heifers to match the ones I have. My original thought was steers/bulls. But I can make my group larger at sale time with all heifers.

Again. I/we do appreciate the time and effort you've dedicated to this venture. This is stuff folks do every day for a living. Us new guys can sure benefit from your knowledge and learning curve on this.

Buy the best hope for the best sell the best make the best buy steers from a breeder not a sale barn ,buy them at six weight put them on full feed not all at once start out at five lbs and end up around 12 to 14 lbs finish them out at 12 months at 1300 to 1450 make more money than any other way . We feed 200 head twice a year that way it works better than any other way you got got to feed the right feed . i dont have time for that now.

 

[Lucky]

Buy the best hope for the best sell the best make the best buy steers from a breeder not a sale barn ,buy them at six weight put them on full feed not all at once start out at five lbs and end up around 12 to 14 lbs finish them out at 12 months at 1300 to 1450 make more money than any other way . We feed 200 head twice a year that way it works better than any other way you got got to feed the right feed . i dont have time for that now.

Are you selling the big calves privately as freezer beef or selling to packers? How long are y'all feeding these calves and how old are they at finished weight? I see you said 12 months but not sure if that's age or time on feed. I don't think we could get a calf to 1,350# at 12 months of age but it would be great if we could.

 

[Brute 23]

The barn I prefer to sell at just got some new owners. They are wanting to do like 2 special weaned calf sales. No one does that around here. They were actually able to drum up about 150-200 weaned calves when we sold ours. They actually stopped and said these calves have had these shots and been weaned x days, etc, even though they sold as singles.

After the sale I talked with the owner a little he said he is definitely going to have to do some work to get some different kind of buyers in for those sales.

It's interesting. It's some thing new, for us.

With this deal we had the wind at our back and the price increase helped a lot. To really make it viable year in and out they will have to get some thing Iike that kicked off.