Environment Cattle

[Mossy Dell]

. . . When we put good sons of our better cows on other of our better cows the progeny competed very well with the AI sired calves...

as others have said...almost every time I have seen someone bring in new stock there not only was an adjustment period for the new stock but often an unexpected reaction in the existing herd as new bugs come in with new stock....

Amen, brother. Your best old cow is adapted to your environment. I'd keep her bull calf, from natural service or a carefully selected AI bull.

As for bugs, the saying in SE Ohio when I was farming there was that when you mix healthy livestock, you get some dead stock. We don't see all the adaptation happening in our herd or flock, but it is.

It happened to me with my sheep flock. My sheep were adapted to our fescue and weather in the Appalachian hills of Ohio. One fall, I bought some young registered ewes from a good farm in NE Kansas where I got rams. That next spring, it was cool and wet, with cold dense mists. Soon I heard coughing.

After lambing, for the first time, I began to lose lambs to a respiratory illness that caused high fever. And that summer, for the first time, pinkeye went through the flock. The horrible thing was that I lost a high percentage of my lamb crop for three years to this new virus. Very costly and it was hard to treat.

Now those Kansas sheep had been healthy. They couldn't handle our dampness. They got my flock's bug or they gave mine theirs. However it worked, a super bug resulted. It faded—all the flock got immune, probably—I was forever leery of bringing in a bunch of new ewes. One ram never caused a problem, though I know one could; the problem seemed to arise when mixing a handful of unadapted animals with mine.

 

[Nesikep]

MossyDell, that's exactly what I was doing with my herd.. Great Grandma of my last bull lived to have 14 calves, Grandma had 16, and the mother had 12 and none of them were problematic cows.. hoping his daughters are more of the same

 

[jdg]

I have heard from many cattlemen that cattle typically do better going west than coming east. (I wouldn't send floppy eared brahmin's to the dakotas though) I completely agree with the notion that the environment is the best sorter of cattle. Heat, humidity, low energy grasses, and fescue toxicity really make it tough for cattle that have grown up on the hard grasses and cooler climes of the west.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I bought two anorexic cows from a drought stricken area, i live in a very fertile area. They calved a month later and became very big and beefy but they cannot stomach green grass, their crap squirts out like a garden hose. No matter what i try. But on dry feed they are perfect. They are due to calve in two months and then will be on the truck out of here, don't need that sight in my paddock.

That's odd,,,same type cows? looks like they would acclimate after awhile..

 

[Redgully]

I bought two anorexic cows from a drought stricken area, i live in a very fertile area. They calved a month later and became very big and beefy but they cannot stomach green grass, their crap squirts out like a garden hose. No matter what i try. But on dry feed they are perfect. They are due to calve in two months and then will be on the truck out of here, don't need that sight in my paddock.

That's odd,,,same type cows? looks like they would acclimate after awhile..

Both pure red polls, bvd tested free and johnes free. I think their intestines must have burnt out either from too much sand or grain. Alternatively maybe damage from a virus. Their progeny don't have any problems and have thrived here.

 

[kenny thomas]

Part of it at least is the bacteria that is in the stomach from the time they were a calf. A calf born there only has that bacteria and does well.

 

[Redgully]

Part of it at least is the bacteria that is in the stomach from the time they were a calf. A calf born there only has that bacteria and does well.

I was reading up about this and got onto some yeast strains that were meant to counteract it. So you wash, strain and sift their manure and after feeding yeast for a few weeks the particles in the manure are meant to be a lot smaller as they digest better. Well after feeding and sifting for a few weeks i didn't notice any change. I think what they get as a calf is more important.

 

[Rydero]

I'll see how the heifer I purchased last fall does.. She's settled into the pecking order, she was bigger than any of mine so she had a leg up there, and they seem to all get along well.. place I got her from manages in a similar way. Last cows we brought in was 25 years ago, and they were 4-5 year olds, they never did really join the herd.
I think making it a policy to buy all your replacement stock is ridiculous both from a biosecurity standpoint or for how they'll fit your environment and cost too.. besides, you're never going to make a lick of progress as far as finding what works.
I've been trying my own bulls for a little bit now, first group of replacement heifers from my own bull calf in a month, that'll be the real test

Trust me it isn't a ridiculous policy. I have 4 home raised animals out of nearly a hundred calving. I already stated why I don't agree with the biosecurity angle if you buy healthy animals but that's mostly just my opinion not evidence. I will say in the last 2 years I've weaned 100% of my calves one year and 100% + 1 (lost a twin that year) and no cows died on my farm. I don't consider anecdotes of people saying they never bought anything for X amount of years then blame every illness that happens on the farm for the next 2 years on the bought animals without any veterinary diagnosis as evidence either. What do you blame when something gets sick when you brought nothing in? Bought cattle fit in my environment just fine. Climatic conditions are very tough here but I've never felt it's been an issue. I haven't had to go more than a couple hundred kilometers to buy cattle. Frankly if I felt I had to have "special" home bred animals to survive and thrive on my farm I'd be worried about my production methods, what was I doing wrong that a healthy cow I bought couldn't survive or produce in the environment I provide my animals? I've made lots of progress finding what works, at this point I mostly buy a specific cross and try to buy a certain quality but even with the exceptions my calves do good and make me money.
The costs certainly aren't ridiculous. Here's how they break down here. This winter I bought breds half wintered for $1700. + Hay and yardage till calving $200 = $1900 in the spring with a calf.
Heifer calves I would have kept for replacements brought me $1075/head in November off the cow. + wintering costs at half what a cow costs $200 ($1275) + pasture next summer $125 ($1400) + Heifer bull upkeep and depreciation $45 ($1445) + preg check $20 ($1465) + loss from culling two of thirty $25 ($1490) + half of wintering costs to be equal to my bought animals $200 ($1690). Now you've had them a year with no production so a year's interest @ 5.5% on the costs so far $81.95 (Total=$1771.95) OR the lost profit from a financed cow $300 (Total=$1990). I left out lots of other expenses: vaccines my breds come with, labour, hauling to and from pasture, vet costs, death loss etc. I just don't see how it's cheaper to keep them.
Know what's expensive if you're a commercial producer? Line breeding. Crossbred herds (I use Angus X Simmental) are 25% more productive depending on the trait. You can then breed to a different breed (I use Charolais) to give the calves more hybrid vigour so they'll gain better. Since I buy the heifers and cows I only need to buy one breed of bull and manage one herd of cattle, I can also keep my bulls longer.

 

[MO-Ruminants]

(I wouldn't send floppy eared brahmin's to the dakotas though)

Would you trust 1/2 or 1/4 blood brahmans anywhere north of, say I-70? (Nebraska, Wyoming, etc.)

 

[Nesikep]

I'll see how the heifer I purchased last fall does.. She's settled into the pecking order, she was bigger than any of mine so she had a leg up there, and they seem to all get along well.. place I got her from manages in a similar way. Last cows we brought in was 25 years ago, and they were 4-5 year olds, they never did really join the herd.
I think making it a policy to buy all your replacement stock is ridiculous both from a biosecurity standpoint or for how they'll fit your environment and cost too.. besides, you're never going to make a lick of progress as far as finding what works.
I've been trying my own bulls for a little bit now, first group of replacement heifers from my own bull calf in a month, that'll be the real test

Trust me it isn't a ridiculous policy. I have 4 home raised animals out of nearly a hundred calving. I already stated why I don't agree with the biosecurity angle if you buy healthy animals but that's mostly just my opinion not evidence. I will say in the last 2 years I've weaned 100% of my calves one year and 100% + 1 (lost a twin that year) and no cows died on my farm. I don't consider anecdotes of people saying they never bought anything for X amount of years then blame every illness that happens on the farm for the next 2 years on the bought animals without any veterinary diagnosis as evidence either. What do you blame when something gets sick when you brought nothing in? Bought cattle fit in my environment just fine. Climatic conditions are very tough here but I've never felt it's been an issue. I haven't had to go more than a couple hundred kilometers to buy cattle. Frankly if I felt I had to have "special" home bred animals to survive and thrive on my farm I'd be worried about my production methods, what was I doing wrong that a healthy cow I bought couldn't survive or produce in the environment I provide my animals? I've made lots of progress finding what works, at this point I mostly buy a specific cross and try to buy a certain quality but even with the exceptions my calves do good and make me money.
The costs certainly aren't ridiculous. Here's how they break down here. This winter I bought breds half wintered for $1700. + Hay and yardage till calving $200 = $1900 in the spring with a calf.
Heifer calves I would have kept for replacements brought me $1075/head in November off the cow. + wintering costs at half what a cow costs $200 ($1275) + pasture next summer $125 ($1400) + Heifer bull upkeep and depreciation $45 ($1445) + preg check $20 ($1465) + loss from culling two of thirty $25 ($1490) + half of wintering costs to be equal to my bought animals $200 ($1690). Now you've had them a year with no production so a year's interest @ 5.5% on the costs so far $81.95 (Total=$1771.95) OR the lost profit from a financed cow $300 (Total=$1990). I left out lots of other expenses: vaccines my breds come with, labour, hauling to and from pasture, vet costs, death loss etc. I just don't see how it's cheaper to keep them.
Know what's expensive if you're a commercial producer? Line breeding. Crossbred herds (I use Angus X Simmental) are 25% more productive depending on the trait. You can then breed to a different breed (I use Charolais) to give the calves more hybrid vigour so they'll gain better. Since I buy the heifers and cows I only need to buy one breed of bull and manage one herd of cattle, I can also keep my bulls longer.

you can go 1000km in any direction and find a similar environment!
If it works for you, that's fine, but if SOMEONE is making money raising replacements you're buying, you ought to be able to raise your own for that as well.. If they aren't making money, then at some point either the quality drops, or the supply will dry up. Buying bred heifers without knowing a good family history will get you a bunch of duds.. bad udders, hooves, temperaments, etc. In 25 years I've never lost an animal between weaning to first calf, so death loss there is pretty negligible. I paid $1500 CAD for a heifer calf last fall, no way I can find a half bred that I like around here for the prices you're talking about (you can get lots of mediocre ones, that's not what I'm looking for)

I'm not realizing any of this hybrid vigor people are raging on about.. I have a crossbred herd and have used purebred bulls up until 2 years ago (and bought good bulls, several were reserve champions).. The linebred calves I've had so far have been a cut above in build and in weight. I'll still bring in outside bulls, I'll probably buy better ones and tide myself over with my own bulls between them.

 

[Rydero]

I agree that often the person I'm buying replacements from is making money on them, I just happen to have figured out that most of the time that profit is generated from birth to weaning not weaning to selling them as breds. The decision to keep them and breed them is made often a year or more before they're sold and I don't know anyone who can predict the market and feed situation that far in advance. I certainly can't. So people zig when they should zag and they break even or lose money raising heifers that year. So if I have feed and think the bred market is reasonable I buy, if not I don't. Often I'm buying heifers the seller kept to retain in their own herds but lack enough feed for or from a dispersal of an older gentleman or lady who spent a lifetime cultivating their own special blend of genetics that adds an intrinsic value that I assign to those cows that means more than mere money. I can't find apple to apple replacements for those cows, they're worth more than what I pay for them with a hundred other people in the room. Please continue to perpetuate that you'll get a bunch of duds if you buy bred heifers that you don't know everything about. It hasn't been my (extensive)experience but it sure does help keep people from bidding against me.

 

[Nesikep]

If you know where they come from, dispersal sales and long time breeders that's different than buying them without much knowledge of their history. You're being choosy and that's good.
I find there's intrinsic value in mine that I can tell you the relations for 5 generations. I also enjoy the challenge of breeding what I think is a nice cow.. When I started I had different criteria than I do now, so the goalposts have moved, and have certainly narrowed a lot

 

[jdg]

In a perfect world, everyone would have a neighbor that has been breeding a maternal herd ( selecting for environmental reproductive longevity) and sells replacement 3 in 1's as second calf cows for a fair price. That way when you buy them you don't have to calve a heifer or get her bred back, but you have a young cow that's proven herself. Since were still in the perfect world, then rancher Joe can use a true terminal bull that will produce truckload lots of half-sib calves that all drop in 30 days and wean at 60% of their momma's body weight and top the sale. I guess the cattle cycle would have broken at the top, and all the outside money that normally pours into to the cattle world when prices get high would've already been invested in bitcoin or industrial hemp.

I guess the water never freezes, there's no calving issues, and all ranchers have the weekend off, while were making this world perfect. I'm sure this team of typers would have other suggestions.