Dehorning ?????

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snake67":27x1wuvy said:
All my cows have horns - we have run hundreds if not thousands through our chutes and squeezes.

All my calves get done by freezing them and removing them painlessly.

Less pain - more weight gain. It also allows an easy and painless burn to stop bleeding and crust over the area to keep the flies off.

The only thing I have to say about horn removal is that there are a lot of people who willingly remove them with no regard for the animals.

Are you one?

I know we raise them to kill them.

However to inflict needless pain on an animal makes my opinion of folks get a bit on the low side.

Less than 25 cents a horn to freeze them. Makes it easier to handle the cow and makes it easier to do the work - which does not need to be done in a manner that would allow the SPCA to lay charges - and they will - or to allow us to look bad in the eyes of the media - and if your place could not withstand an undercover video that goes coast to coast on all the major TV channels - then you are not doing it right.

And I would bet from what I am reading - whether it is right or wrong in your eyes -the beef community as a whole would take a pretty big hit if someone came on board and did some under cover work. I watched a friend go through that - ruined him and his family.

Most of the folks reading this will ignore it and think - tell those folks to eff off and Bez too.

Times are coming and things are changing - you need to be ahead of that wave - or you might get caught up in it. Bad for the beef business to treat animals rough today.

Best to all

Bez

Bez

Bez, could you please explain a little more about freezing the horns off?

Don't spoil the surprise for the guys who never see anything outside the end of their own nose. I deal with restaurant owners daily in my line of work. You have no idea how many people ask me, "You don't cut the horns off your cows, do you?" with the implication that only perverted sadistic bass turds do such a thing.

One word that most people should become familiar with is disintermediation. It is the notion that internet access makes one an instant expert who has no need or use for those of us who have done things the old fashioned way through trial and error, making mistakes, etc. 9 times out of 10 people asking questions on this forum really should hire a seasoned cattle manager/ranch hand or call a dang vet.
:2cents:
 
Yes it is lidocaine and I get it from my vet in large bottles

I am jammed for time but more than happy to discuss tonight when I get home

They feel nothing - and it is good for business as it is now a medical procedure rather than the perceived cruelty of torture - and it will eventually come to that across the continent

Horns - we deal with them on a regular basis and do not think of them as a dangerous accessory

Bez
 
cowgirl8":2jpa58uk said:
There are actually people who think only bulls have horns....lol

You mean to tell me that cows can have horns too ?
Thats why I was trying to dehorn them is to make steers out of them !!
Maybe I need one of them there "seasoned cattle managers / ranch hand" :banana: :help:
 
no offense and you are right my answere did not help with purchased cattle....

but there are polled genes in almost every breed now except the breeds that value the horns....

so I was not trying to push angus on you even though I have hadd them all my life...there ar a lot of good red angus as well that are not black...

having dang near been killed several times it baffles me why folk want horns on cattle at all...

the few times I have dealt with horned cattle I put dehorning past on calves as soon as possible....

my daddy use to dehorn cattle for folks and that job and hot branding are two things I never want to do again...one outfit I worked on hot branded everything and I never want to do it again...I like freeze branding but it is more difficult to do...it does give a better brand though.
 
snake67":1fejrx42 said:
Yes it is lidocaine and I get it from my vet in large bottles

I am jammed for time but more than happy to discuss tonight when I get home

They feel nothing - and it is good for business as it is now a medical procedure rather than the perceived cruelty of torture - and it will eventually come to that across the continent

Horns - we deal with them on a regular basis and do not think of them as a dangerous accessory

Bez
Whenever you have time Bez is fine.
The only lidocaine I can get locally says "1% Lidocaine HCL 10mg/mL" in a little 20mL vial. If you use a different %, then I need to find another source. I think that vial of 20mL equals 4 US teaspoons or .68 fl oz if my conversion figures aren't lying.
 
BRYANT":18fz6izg said:
cowgirl8":18fz6izg said:
There are actually people who think only bulls have horns....lol

You mean to tell me that cows can have horns too ?
Thats why I was trying to dehorn them is to make steers out of them !!
Maybe I need one of them there "seasoned cattle managers / ranch hand" :banana: :help:


Apologies if I offended BRYANT, was not specifically talking about you but to the observation that a lot of stress on cattle and people could be avoided when qualified individuals are involved. Most people not involved with ag do not use the term cattle, they use the word "cows" as an all inclusive term that includes bulls, heifers, steers, etc.
 
Greybeard - the first article will answer most of your questions and is better written than I could ever do.

Bez

___________________________________________________________

To all:

I am sitting in my office and the power for the flight simulator went down as a tractor trailer rammed the substation at the gate - so I decided to throw a bit of info out there on pain, safety and dehorning.

And yeah - as per normal I will pontificate a bit.

Actually the best article was right on Cattletoday - but if you are like me you usually ignore most of the stuff and just hit the threads.

Our veterinarian provides us with our lidocaine. A few years ago, during our annual herd health inspection, I also had him demo a couple of dehornings using lidocaine and then watch and advise me when we did the remainder of the targeted animals to be dehorned. One thing about it that I noticed - similar to when doing a C-section (rather than pulling with a truck as I read on here once some time back) the cow pretty much stood there and did not even flinch once - when doing the horns the animals did not show signs of pain and they did recover faster. I cut the horns off using a wire saw. Blood control was carried out by removing the veins and then burning the area around the base of where the horn was.

I like this article because it gives reasons and techniques - it mentions dosage and I agree with the number - however I believe that we up that to about 8 mls per horn for full grown animals - but I do not have my notes with me to be sure.

http://cattletoday.com/archive/2009/April/CT1953.shtml

This next article is typical motherhood but does get some points across for those who simply want to never deal with horns:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 09-003.pdf

One thing we always do if dehorning is pick the season - winter for us - no flies. On larger animals we also use an anti-inflammatory to assist in recovery.

The big thing to remember - if done right it is safe, relatively painless and NOT the huge gaping bloody mess that people complain about. The entire operation is carried out with no yelling and screaming and loud noises and loud grinding and loud noisy tools and no fighting of the animal. It is quiet and calm.

Now - the fact remains that horns are around, will be around and a lot of people do not like them.

There are not a lot of polled dairy breeds out there. LOL

In the beef business, there are alternatives that you can breed. We have never had an issue and in fact "train" the horns of our keepers to take the traditional Brit Herf form by using horn weights that we bolt on to the horns and remove when we figure the horns are turned down enough. It can also be done by shaving the horns but I personally have never done that.

However there are still going to be a lot of horns in the world - get used to it - they are not going away.

We are not fancy folks but the accepted standard is changing and public perception is changing - we in the beef industry need to change - not with it - but ahead of public perception.

So if people even care - then read the articles and here is the most important thing. Find a veterinarian and form a relationship with him or her. THEN find another as a back up. We use two exclusively and know three others. Our annual veterinary bill is less than a couple grand but when you consider there are more than 350 animals on the place as I write - that is not a lot of bucks as it includeds drugs, drug paraphernalia and a mulititude of tools and such. We are fairly well kitted out for most emergencies. And it is a write off as well - and probably for you folks as well.

With a little practise, a little patience, a little detemination and some education people can become reasonably competent in looking after an animal medically. You will not replace your veterinarian but you CAN avoid pulling calves with trucks and wondering why she either died or did not get up for a week, you can actually humanely repair a wound or fix pink eye without throwing a handfull of raw salt crystals or raw diesel in her eye or know when it is impossible to pull and a C-section is required and finally - you can kock some horns off and the world will not fall apart on you.

And, if you are not prepared to call a veterinarian for an issue on the farm and you then lose that animal - then you have lost more than the visit from the veterinarian might actually have cost you - loose more than one and you are really in the hole. Always have a couple on the speed dial.

So ends my pompous lecture - in the end it is only worth what you want to make of it - maybe one person will think on it - if that happens I am a happy camper - we are all in the beef business - and I am also in the sheep business and growing faster than I probably should - and we need to ensure people are happy with the way we raise and treat our animals - or they will demand changes to the laws - which will become so cumbersome as to make it impossible for the average Joe to raise anything but kids.

Cheers

Bez
 
Years ago we dealt with having to dehorn a few heifers. We always took them to the vet and he always deadened them before cutting them off.
One time way back when our kids showed commercial heifers, oldest daughters heifer needed dehorning. She developed a big case of maggots. :yuck: Poor thing got stuck with the name Maggie..lol...We have her decedents and although i cant pick them out, my daughter can. We are grafting a calf to one of them and my daughter reminded me of it, she said this is the cow out of the twin Maggie had...we all remember Maggie..
 
greybeard":1r1ym4ys said:
snake67":1r1ym4ys said:
Yes it is lidocaine and I get it from my vet in large bottles

I am jammed for time but more than happy to discuss tonight when I get home

They feel nothing - and it is good for business as it is now a medical procedure rather than the perceived cruelty of torture - and it will eventually come to that across the continent

Horns - we deal with them on a regular basis and do not think of them as a dangerous accessory

Bez
Whenever you have time Bez is fine.
The only lidocaine I can get locally says "1% Lidocaine HCL 10mg/mL" in a little 20mL vial. If you use a different %, then I need to find another source. I think that vial of 20mL equals 4 US teaspoons or .68 fl oz if my conversion figures aren't lying.

Still in the office - I called home to ask about the strength of the drug. Wife says we are out - I used the last of it last week to repair a rip in the front leading edge of back leg of a cow that decided to go running through the woods in deep snow.

Sorry, I honestly have no clue what the answer is as I have never worried about it - we have none in the house at present - which means I need to get some soon - and when I need it I get it directly from our veterinarian - it is the same stuff he uses when he works on our animals and other animals as well - it works. I buy it in 500 ml bottles.

The article mentions 2% so I am not sure that you have the same stuff that we use.

I do not know if our veterinarian is supposed to do this, but that is where I get it. But he is our exclusive veterinarian and we work together when he comes to the farm - has been our guy for about 12 years now - I have a great deal of respect for him.

As an aside - I went to the dentist last week and she used lidocaine on me! Tastes like crap too.

Ask your vet if what you are talking about is the same as what he uses - that would be my simple and non technical response.

Cheers

Bez
 
The bottle here says Lidocaine HCl 2%. It's a 250 mL bottle and the price tag on it from the vet is $14.02. In particular, it is manufactured by Bimedia Animal Health of Cambridge, Ontario.
 
snake67":ceu6dpm4 said:
Greybeard - the first article will answer most of your questions and is better written than I could ever do.

Bez

Thanks Bez--the article was good---and informative.
And thanks to you Aaron!
 
Us horned guys have to stick together because if the men in suits take a dislike to them, then it starts down a slippery slope of taking control of our industry. First they go after horns, then castration and before you know it, the government is telling you what breed to run and when to calve.
 
Aaron":1965w4ky said:
The bottle here says Lidocaine HCl 2%. It's a 250 mL bottle and the price tag on it from the vet is $14.02. In particular, it is manufactured by Bimedia Animal Health of Cambridge, Ontario.

LOL

You sneaky dog - I take a lot of heat over my comments and my ideas and you roll in and prove I have a point after all.

Where have you been for the past few years?

Bez
 
snake67":34mmrb0l said:
Aaron":34mmrb0l said:
The bottle here says Lidocaine HCl 2%. It's a 250 mL bottle and the price tag on it from the vet is $14.02. In particular, it is manufactured by Bimedia Animal Health of Cambridge, Ontario.

LOL

You sneaky dog - I take a lot of heat over my comments and my ideas and you roll in and prove I have a point after all.

Where have you been for the past few years?

Bez

I'm always here. I just got tired of taking the heat in the past and pass the torch onto you. I've got enough polled guys around here in the real world that rip on me, it gets old talking to a wall after a while.

Now you be careful, your almost a guru and people might actually start taking your advice.
 
Aaron":2jhe4jr7 said:
Us horned guys have to stick together because if the men in suits take a dislike to them, then it starts down a slippery slope of taking control of our industry. First they go after horns, then castration and before you know it, the government is telling you what breed to run and when to calve.
Speaking of which------
https://imgflip.com/i/7nkii
:hide:
:lol: :lol:
 
greybeard":xpqnpc0s said:
Aaron":xpqnpc0s said:
Us horned guys have to stick together because if the men in suits take a dislike to them, then it starts down a slippery slope of taking control of our industry. First they go after horns, then castration and before you know it, the government is telling you what breed to run and when to calve.
Speaking of which------
https://imgflip.com/i/7nkii
:hide:
:lol: :lol:

Do not get me started

Bez
 
When I first started out I insisted on all polled cattle. Over time, I saw more and more the benefit of the brahman influence females. This comes with horns a lot of the time. Where I used to dehorn religiously, now I will only have them cut back short on the older heifers/cows. It is not that big of a deal to me now. And I now have a horned hereford bull. His horns turn down very nicely and he is docile and does not use them. I don't want a bunch of longhorn cows, but I don't mind handling cattle with the horns tipped way back. Its not that big of a deal to me anymore. They're just cows.
 
greybeard":1t418zkm said:
Aaron":1t418zkm said:
Us horned guys have to stick together because if the men in suits take a dislike to them, then it starts down a slippery slope of taking control of our industry. First they go after horns, then castration and before you know it, the government is telling you what breed to run and when to calve.
Speaking of which------
https://imgflip.com/i/7nkii
:hide:
:lol: :lol:

The great and mighty O is a horned guy, when he became president I had to do an internet search because I had never heard of Wagyu or Kobi beef before then. :lol2:
 

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