Deer Valley....

[elkwc]

If I could find a 20+ year old registered Angus cow, that has great feet and can still settle, and has Pathfinder status, not to mention she is from a great cow family, then I would like to get embryos from her and breed to a bull like Hoover Dam.

It might sound like a silly notion, but I'm pretty sure I would feel better about those females than if I had sourced them from a place that doesn't have females past 3 years old, or any Pathfinders.

That is just my preference and not a call against operations that employ that practice. They probably have more cash flow than I do, LOL!

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

TG the successful cattlemen here are different evidently than those in your area. They want a bull to last till 8-10 years od age and a cow till at least 10-12. They develop the replaceme ta and sell them forgood money while mother is raising another.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Branded, what's going on here I'm agreeing with you again :lol2: . To me you just stated the most sensible use for ET that I know of. Identifying cows with traits that have kept them in the herd for years not just a pretty one for 5 years or less. Then get multiple calves, daughters more specifically from that cow by a good bull. Then one can keep or market them with some more confidence that they may not need to culled out and replaced after a couple years. I think productive longevity is something that's being lost in a lot of contemporary cattle.

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

TG the successful cattlemen here are different evidently than those in your area. They want a bull to last till 8-10 years od age and a cow till at least 10-12. They develop the replaceme ta and sell them forgood money while mother is raising another.

Keeping bulls for 8 to 10 years requires a lot of management. I try and trade bulls every 3 years. I'm not much for management. Out of everything we do the only things I can see that actually work is our fly management and rotational grazing.

 

[Ky hills]

Who the heck is going to keep any cow for 20 years? The majority of the successful cattle people I know, "pay the bills with cattle" roll their cows by 10 years old and their bulls by 6 years old. Why take chances with an old cow, you know one of these days there's going to be a problem. I have 30 nice heifers and can only make room to keep less than half of them. Sounds like you guy's need help picking out good cows to get replacements from.

TG the successful cattlemen here are different evidently than those in your area. They want a bull to last till 8-10 years od age and a cow till at least 10-12. They develop the replaceme ta and sell them forgood money while mother is raising another.

Keeping bulls for 8 to 10 years requires a lot of management. I try and trade bulls every 3 years. I'm not much for management. Out of everything we do the only things I can see that actually work is our fly management and rotational grazing.

I'm in about the same boat when it comes to bulls, I usually don't keep them past 4-5 years old at the most. Hoping to be able to keep our current Angus bull as long as possible. I would say that if you can rotational graze and keep flies under control that's some pretty good management.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Selling the entire female herd over 3 years is a great marketing strategy. Buyers can be confident that everything is for sale and so will compete for the genetics. With other types of female sales there is always the perception that they are holding onto their good ones and just selling their duds, I know that most on here would be sceptical and suspicious.

These big operations will already have their tanks full of the embryos they want from the best cows so it is time to move on all cashed up.

Ken

I can't deny that it must make the register ring. My question is this, and it's not just aimed at DVF or any operation in particular, does one just buy the very best embryos they can from Spruce Mountain, or Leonard Newman, rent a bunch of uteruses, get someone to do the embryo work, let another farmer raise the rented uteruses, give him a bone, maybe 2-3 calves, wean the rest at 150-180 days, bring em back home, put some meat on their bones, create a slick sales book, build the hype, have an auction, cash in, then rinse and repeat? Unless buyers keep those females or bulls long term, it will never surface whether problems exist, on top of that, most of the buyers may not even be in business after a few years, even better.

I'm serious on this one, maybe a bit blunt, but serious nevertheless.

Seems like this type of operation is popping up more frequently and has deep pockets, multiple partners, many silent, and the only objective is the $$$. They almost run it like the horse business. The heavy lifting is almost always done by the employees or managers, not by the owners/partners.

I know I brought it up earlier, but have you noticed that the more established hard core Angus operations, usually have multiple Pathfinder dams? Unless I'm incorrect, those Pathfinders can't develop in 3 years.

Maybe I'm just blowing smoke....

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Why would DVF need to buy embryos? I am sure they do buy some, but I bet they have a bunch of there own sitting in tanks ready to go. They don't take cows to be flushed they have people on staff that does it on the farm.

 

[Ebenezer]

does one just buy the very best embryos they can from Spruce Mountain, or Leonard Newman, rent a bunch of uteruses, get someone to do the embryo work, let another farmer raise the rented uteruses, give him a bone, maybe 2-3 calves, wean the rest at 150-180 days, bring em back home, put some meat on their bones, create a slick sales book, build the hype, have an auction, cash in, then rinse and repeat?

Yes and the cooperator herds around here do well at it in providing the cows and taking the calves to weaning. That is the current state of a lot of the big Angus breeders and probably in other breeds, too. The other one that is less connected are the cooperator herds that raise their calves (not embryos) and then the calves are suddenly in the contemporary group of the sales leader at weaning or later. The use of the term "contempory group" is used loosely and does not account for the genetic, gestational and environmental differences of the cooperator herds. But it seems to be accepted.

Pathfinder cows: to have pathfinder cows in a herd you have to have equal or more under-performing at weaning. So it is not a free lunch. In that thought to chase Pathfinder cows you could cull the bottom half at 5YO but then next crop of calves will also have a top half and a bottom half for an annual cull and you also just set up a system to select for either or both: higher WW and MM. Can that be economically sustained in a given environment? The ideal of Pathfinder would include a visual appraisal of feet, legs, udder, teats and such prior to the animal being named such.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Pathfinder cows don't mean much besides the cow has done a good job being a cow. There's to many variables that can be manipulated by a pen, paper and human ingenuity.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Deep pockets, and looking too make them deeper..no doubt they'll sell higher just hitting their most productive years...its been a common practice in the past for most angus producers, too sell em at around 5 - 6 year if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Sostra]

What about the other extreme compared to DVF - Connealy Angus do not sell any female except one cow (pick of the dams) per sale?

 

[True Grit Farms]

What about the other extreme compared to DVF - Connealy Angus do not sell any female except one cow (pick of the dams) per sale?

If that's a fact, Connealy sells a lot of high priced cattle for hamburger prices.

 

[CattleMan1920]

What about the other extreme compared to DVF - Connealy Angus do not sell any female except one cow (pick of the dams) per sale?

Connealy has an excellent program.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Pathfinder cows don't mean much besides the cow has done a good job being a cow. There's to many variables that can be manipulated by a pen, paper and human ingenuity.

You seem to generally have very little trust in anything related to the cattle business.

It's probably warranted too!

I think as a seed stock producer if one misleads people, it will eventually rear its ugly head and one will be self culled.

Not every operation in business is pulling the three card monte on their clients.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Why would DVF need to buy embryos? I am sure they do buy some, but I bet they have a bunch of there own sitting in tanks ready to go. They don't take cows to be flushed they have people on staff that does it on the farm.

Again, not pointing fingers at DVF.

High dollar outfits buy embryos like they buy semen. Nothing wrong with that either.

You either develop your own cattle slowly with breeding, or you buy your way to the top quickly. It depends on how much capital you have to employ.

Building it from scratch is more rewarding, but we live in a day and age where fast cash is more "rewarding" than anything.

A lot of outfits have partners, and telling an investor that a "winner" or game changer in the industry could be 10 years away is not advisable. They want a big hit next year. Hence ET with superstar cows and bulls.

Taking no outside investors, stacking genetics year after year, and generally eating sh.t for a long time is not a plan most people would be interested in. But again, it's short money versus long.

With that said, there is absolutely nothing that would convince me to take on partners.

Connealy, SAV, Baldridge, and Hoover basically own Angus patents, genetically speaking, they have played the long game and they have businesses that are nearly impenetrable.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Well rats! Just when I was about to approach you with a joint venture in the cattle biz.

 

[76 Bar]

Angus Pathfinder specs and link to current Pathfinder dams & sires:
https://www.angus.org/performance/PathfinderInfo.aspx
IMO the dam criteria has serious flaws specifically a consecutive 3 year history over the lifetime of a cow, minimum of 5 animals constituting a contemporary group and once achieved the supposed honor is permanent. The sires achieving Pathfinder status relative to the percentage of daughters produced is enlightening.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Pathfinder cows don't mean much besides the cow has done a good job being a cow. There's to many variables that can be manipulated by a pen, paper and human ingenuity.

You seem to generally have very little trust in anything related to the cattle business.

It's probably warranted too!

I think as a seed stock producer if one misleads people, it will eventually rear its ugly head and one will be self culled.

Not every operation in business is pulling the three card monte on their clients.

I'm not big on trusting people, most will do anything for a dollar.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Angus Pathfinder specs and link to current Pathfinder dams & sires:
https://www.angus.org/performance/PathfinderInfo.aspx
IMO the dam criteria has serious flaws specifically a consecutive 3 year history over the lifetime of a cow, minimum of 5 animals constituting a contemporary group and once achieved the supposed honor is permanent. The sires achieving Pathfinder status relative to the percentage of daughters produced is enlightening.

Ask Ron, he is the statistics whiz, but I'm pretty sure that 3 years is enough data to form a trend.

It's really no different than the unrealistic hurdles you hear about on CT threads.

If a cow can't do backflips while pumping out twins every year, she needs to be culled immediately! For hamburger, at that! LOL!

People on CT talk about fertility and how hard a cow must work, I thought they would like the Pathfinder requirements.

 

[Ebenezer]

Angus Pathfinder specs and link to current Pathfinder dams & sires:
https://www.angus.org/performance/PathfinderInfo.aspx
IMO the dam criteria has serious flaws specifically a consecutive 3 year history over the lifetime of a cow, minimum of 5 animals constituting a contemporary group and once achieved the supposed honor is permanent. The sires achieving Pathfinder status relative to the percentage of daughters produced is enlightening.

Matches up to some of the cattle regions out west where cows are culled or sold at that age or near it due to no teeth left.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Angus Pathfinder specs and link to current Pathfinder dams & sires:
https://www.angus.org/performance/PathfinderInfo.aspx
IMO the dam criteria has serious flaws specifically a consecutive 3 year history over the lifetime of a cow, minimum of 5 animals constituting a contemporary group and once achieved the supposed honor is permanent. The sires achieving Pathfinder status relative to the percentage of daughters produced is enlightening.

Matches up to some of the cattle regions out west where cows are culled or sold at that age or near it due to no teeth left.

You gave me a good idea, let's start posting teeth pics. The older the cow the better.

 

[Ebenezer]

Angus Pathfinder specs and link to current Pathfinder dams & sires:
https://www.angus.org/performance/PathfinderInfo.aspx
IMO the dam criteria has serious flaws specifically a consecutive 3 year history over the lifetime of a cow, minimum of 5 animals constituting a contemporary group and once achieved the supposed honor is permanent. The sires achieving Pathfinder status relative to the percentage of daughters produced is enlightening.

Matches up to some of the cattle regions out west where cows are culled or sold at that age or near it due to no teeth left.

You gave me a good idea, let's start posting teeth pics. The older the cow the better.

We get dentures for ours when they get over 30 years old. :lol: Here a molar, there a molar everywhere a molar, molar. Don't want a bull named Gabby either. Good idea.