Calving ease

[Ky hills]

I've used quite a few CE bulls for years, and while I admit I do like not having to worry a whole about calving ( still have to keep a close watch and make sure all is well ).
I sold heifers in a bred heifer program that required those CE bulls and rather than try to run different bulls, I just crossed over those bulls with my cows as well. I retained some of the heifers along and can definitely say that we lost a lot of pounds considering where I was with registered Charolais 25-30 years ago.
My current calves are as much as 2-300 lbs lighter.
Our best weaning weights now are on par with the very bottom end of my calves back then.
I recently sold one of my bulls because of disposition and that the put out too small of calves and the first group weaned off real small.
I knew that it would be that way, and he fulfilled his role, but I can use another bull and have calving ease with a little more growth.
We are in the process of trying to up the growth some haven't quite found what I'm looking for yet,
One of the issues that I'm having and it shows in our herd is finding thick and masculine looking bulls, with enough frame.

 

[gcreekrch]

I've used quite a few CE bulls for years, and while I admit I do like not having to worry a whole about calving ( still have to keep a close watch and make sure all is well ).
I sold heifers in a bred heifer program that required those CE bulls and rather than try to run different bulls, I just crossed over those bulls with my cows as well. I retained some of the heifers along and can definitely say that we lost a lot of pounds considering where I was with registered Charolais 25-30 years ago.
My current calves are as much as 2-300 lbs lighter.
Our best weaning weights now are on par with the very bottom end of my calves back then.
I recently sold one of my bulls because of disposition and that the put out too small of calves and the first group weaned off real small.
I knew that it would be that way, and he fulfilled his role, but I can use another bull and have calving ease with a little more growth.
We are in the process of trying to up the growth some haven't quite found what I'm looking for yet,
One of the issues that I'm having and it shows in our herd is finding thick and masculine looking bulls, with enough frame.

I could send you a couple this fall when I am done with them.

 

[moses388]

Seem as though the AI stud I use has put too much emphasis on CE. the last few years it is hard to find a red angus bull that is not a high CE bull. Blacks have a bigger selection but still hard to find other traits I like without settling for a high CE bull. I look at weaning weight as a determining factor when using CE bulls.

Bieber Deep End ??
I have a feeder heifer sired by deep end. Plan to keep her around, despite the bull's below-average herd builder index score.

 

[Stocker Steve]

f in a herd of 20 cows you loose 50 lb per calf weighing weight is it better to loose a big calf occasionally and gain in the end?

OK, I will take the bait:

A 50 pounds WW reduction is unlikely. Perhaps 35 pounds. So without getting into when you wean and a lower VOG - - 20x35=700 herd WW less, but you may lose one dumb calf from using a power bull that sires square calves, and so it is about a wash...

Problem with lower BW and/or lower frame size bulls are the idiots who stack several generations of this breeding to end up with a poor performing herd. These bulls are not good or bad, they are just a special tool.

Better question is how do you select cows that can handle a terminal calf w/o assistance?

 

[gcreekrch]

OK, I will take the bait:

A 50 pounds WW reduction is unlikely. Perhaps 35 pounds. So without getting into when you wean and a lower VOG - - 20x35=700 herd WW less, but you may lose one dumb calf from using a power bull that sires square calves, and so it is about a wash...

Problem with lower BW and/or lower frame size bulls are the idiots who stack several generations of this breeding to end up with a poor performing herd. These bulls are not good or bad, they are just a special tool.

Better question is how do you select cows that can handle a terminal calf w/o assistance?

Why would you label a non calving ease bloodline as terminal?

 

[Stocker Steve]

Why would you label a non calving ease bloodline as terminal?

Not what I meant.

There is a current timing assumption included in the answer, and the data says straight bred matings on average will give you a lower weaning percentage and a lower weaning wt. per cow exposed than X bred matings. There also an assumption that you are actually trying to make money selling feeders.

So, in this market, the commercial producer will be most profitable selling all X bred calves, that have been sired by growthy beefy terminal bulls.

 

[Son of Butch]

I did not say ''birth weight''.

You asked: If a calf is born 6 days early, Do I WEIGH IT AT BIRTH or at 6 days?

Do midgets come from women that had them premature?.

Did you attend a Chicago Public School or something?
Dwarfism is genetic.... double duh, duh

 

[Son of Butch]

Why would you label a non calving ease bloodline as terminal?

Because you wouldn't select for maternal traits when your goal is terminal production.
CEM: predicts the average ease a sire's daughters will calve as first calf heifers when compared to daughters of other sires.
Terminal Index ($B) predicts profitability of post weaning and carcass traits due to genetics.

2019 Oklahoma State beef extension genetic correlations and antagonisms.
birth weight correlation to direct calving ease high
birth weight correlation to carcass weight moderate

yearling weight correlation to mature size moderate to high
milk production correlation to total energy intake moderate
fat thickness correlation to yield grade high
age at puberty to retail product % uncorrelated

 

[Ebenezer]

You asked: If a calf is born 6 days early, Do I WEIGH IT AT BIRTH or at 6 days?


Did you attend a Chicago Public School or something?
Dwarfism is genetic.... double duh, duh

This issue is not about the date to weigh and, yes, dwarfism in not linked to gestation length that we know about. But short gestation, like preemies in humans, can/will have less developed lungs - part of the "early". And short gestation "curve bender bulls and cattle" have the anomaly of low birth weight (due to early) and higher growth rate which is something genetic to let the animals mature (finish growing) at a later age. Somehow the link normal link to BW/MW is skewed. There is always a great rush, it seems, to anomalies and freaks in the livestock world. Pet world, too. Circus side show world, too... Just read the article on the cloned steer that they are using to create a high prime, low YG herd at some university. The professor stated that an abnormality is what he is seeking to concentrate in some words.

The true answer would have an EPD adjustment for gestation length in the BW EPD and to go back to collecting the old data info of expected gestation lengths. It used to be in the AI catalogs at one time. Back then, I did not realize the significance. It would level the playing field and likely keep down issues of stacking short gestation cattle just like the thread is going about the problems of stacking all low BW cattle for generations. For me, I will avoid them like the plague. One time is enough: "been there - done that" decades ago.

 

[Son of Butch]

But short gestation, like preemies in humans, can/will have less developed lungs - part of the "early".

Preemie definition in humans: born more than 14 days early.
shorter gestations of 14 days or less are considered full term

 

[Ebenezer]

Preemie definition in humans: born more than 14 days early.
shorter gestations of 14 days or less are considered full term

Never saw that definition. Where did it come from? So, breathing ability has no play in the definition? What happens if you stack generations of them?

 

[Son of Butch]

Never saw that definition. Where did it come from? So, breathing ability has no play in the definition?
What happens if you stack generations of them?

I looked it up on Mayo Clinic website.
Preemies (more than 14 days) are well known for under developed lungs.

I know of no research study regarding multi generational preemie births.

 

[TCRanch]

Let's not forget the cow, or heifer in this case. I used Johnson as the sire in my '21 heifers. He is CED +16, BW -4.0, WW +39, YW +66, CEM +15. What's the saying; a picture is worth a thousand words? And I've used him on my mature cows with no hesitation retaining subsequent heifers.

'Bout Time!

This old girl is 13. Always one of the first to calve, always has a bull calf and raises a whopper. Short solid mouth, draws down because she gives everything to her calf but I've never had to doctor her for anything, not even a wonky foot. Bless her heart, doesn't even have hair on the back...

www.cattletoday.com

 

[Ebenezer]

I looked it up on Mayo Clinic website.
Preemies (more than 14 days) are well known for under developed lungs.

I know of no research study regarding multi generational preemie births.

That's interesting. I hit Cleveland Clinic by the internet search. A lot more problems than I realized and a lot of causes. No issue of genetics was listed. Thanks.

 

[Son of Butch]

Let's not forget the cow, or heifer in this case.

Nor the environment, energy intake and there was even a research study correlating colder weather during gestation to increased
birth weights by increasing blood flow to internal organs.

 

[Stoneridgemb]

With a big push for calving ease for several years have some really cost themselves lots of money by getting much smaller weaning weights. As i was rotating pasture today i notices a calf from a cow i bought last summer. Its a month old and wont weigh 80 lb. It will never be much.
We see Lithuanian farmer with calves born usassisted weighing 120lb. Im not going to try for that but have many gone to far the other other way? If in a herd of 20 cows you loose 50 lb per calf weighing weight is it better to loose a big calf occasionally and gain in the end?

 

[Stoneridgemb]

Got in this late boys but around here it's all about the moma cow when your talking profitability. Poor bulls on good cows still produce a decent calf but top end growth bulls on poor cows still bring home dogs. Lighter bw result in more live calves and less damage to the cows at calving. they rebreed faster and shorten up your calving window, means more $. and usually a lot less work assisting cows, making big dumb calves suck. If you keep your own replacements you can still produce good moderate framed cows without the big bw sires. lots of quality out there to choose from in moderate packages. Sure rather pull a backwards 75-80lb calf than 104.

 

[Ky hills]

Not what I meant.

There is a current timing assumption included in the answer, and the data says straight bred matings on average will give you a lower weaning percentage and a lower weaning wt. per cow exposed than X bred matings. There also an assumption that you are actually trying to make money selling feeders.

So, in this market, the commercial producer will be most profitable selling all X bred calves, that have been sired by growthy beefy terminal bulls.

This is true, we worked cattle yesterday, in a group of older calves that were born within 3 days of each other 2 on the same day. The cows were Angus, and BWF, and one Simmental. The calves were sired by a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Hereford bull. The calf by the Simmental cow was so much bigger than the others, probably 100 lbs more.
She is an older cow and always considered one of the best, yet when retaining daughters it's always been disappointing. Have one daughter an Angus cross, harder keeping, but generally looks good. Her calves skew back towards the average of the herd in spite of the fact that she herself is large framed and heavy milking.

 

[gcreekrch]

This is true, we worked cattle yesterday, in a group of older calves that were born within 3 days of each other 2 on the same day. The cows were Angus, and BWF, and one Simmental. The calves were sired by a 3/4 Angus 1/4 Hereford bull. The calf by the Simmental cow was so much bigger than the others, probably 100 lbs more.
She is an older cow and always considered one of the best, yet when retaining daughters it's always been disappointing. Have one daughter an Angus cross, harder keeping, but generally looks good. Her calves skew back towards the average of the herd in spite of the fact that she herself is large framed and heavy milking.

I don't worry much about bw in cow bulls until 100 lbs (and assuming built right) If we were to keep all our heifers at weaning I would cull the big ugly ones and the little end prior to breeding and use a 30 to 40 day window for bulls in. Let nature cull the shy breeders. Our heifers are for the most part good mothers, milk moderately and have a good % of breed back. Mature cow here would average 1300 lbs.

 

[Ky hills]

I don't worry much about bw in cow bulls until 100 lbs (and assuming built right) If we were to keep all our heifers at weaning I would cull the big ugly ones and the little end prior to breeding and use a 30 to 40 day window for bulls in. Let nature cull the shy breeders. Our heifers are for the most part good mothers, milk moderately and have a good % of breed back. Mature cow here would average 1300 lbs.

I don't really think BW for calving out cows is that much of an issue either.
I used to have a breeding period that caught 90% within 45 days. That was with Charolais cows from 1450-1800#.
Now I have a completely different herd with no ties at all back to those. Mainly purchased remnants from the bred heifer projects that I did not sell, and descendants of purchased registered Angus cows.
After selling of the majority of the registered Angus cows which weighed 1500-1800, most of our cows now will go 1200-1300, a few smaller and a few bigger. The fertility is not there in these cows outside of a few older cows that are like clockwork, and an occasional young one.
We have culled heavy, and sometimes I'd like to just start out all over again,
We've just been retaining several of our homegrown heifers for 2-3 years and it's been a heavier cull on them than should be.
I went another direction with the calves coming on as yearlings now, and this years,hoping for some better results.
Trying to establish a new generation of reliable fertile moderate sized cows and then use more of a growth bull on those.