Braunvieh good for receips?

[TwoByrdsMG]

Had our local Select Sire rep send me these pictures. These are purebred Braunvieh cows age 3-6 years old who came up available in Northern California due to lack of feed availability. Bull bred last season but the rep said other than last year he has AI'd this herd every year. Bred to a polled Braunvieh bull for March and April calving.

Calves last year were by TJ Main Event but he didn't keep back heifers.

Older guy who sold all the "old girls" last year to try to slim down. Still not making it so he is going to ship them if he can't sell them.

He said they will be priced at the low end of Orland prices which was $800-1300 for breds on 12/17.

Does anyone have recent experience with this breed? Has anyone used them for receips? That is what I would buy them for. I specifically like the group of 4 pictured last (207 and 89 are the tags shown).






Saw some 10-16 year old threads on the breed but nothing recent.

 

[wbvs58]

They look like good roomy cows and in ideal condition to be recipients I would say. Too bad they are not open now.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I only know of them from years ago. I used to help a breeder show theirs at the NYSF. I was extremely impressed with them. I believe they are derived from Brown Swiss - just meatier. Great milkers - good temperament.
I think they should make great recips.

 

[farmerjan]

We used a braunvieh bull and was very happy with the calves he threw. They tend to be very easy to get along with cows .... great frame and have good milking ability. At that price, if they were near here, I would buy the whole bunch. There was a guy near here that had some and he actually bought a Brown Swiss bull calf off a farmer I tested milk for, to raise and use on his cows to put more milk back into his because he said they had lost alot of the "milkiness" from the farm he had bought his from. They are a little slower growing than some breeds but have a tremendous capacity for weight and carcass.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

Ken- we prefer spring calving and actually had planned to set some of ours up for early March calving ET. I think this group will work well to add to the group.

@Jeanne - Simme Valley thank you! That is one of my concerns when adding new cows- the temperament.

@farmerjan he actually is not dispersing completely but wants to sell half of his herd which was about 20 cows. Hoping to head down next weekend after he gets them preg checked and determines who's March calving and who's April calving. I was going to pick out the ones who calve in the first 3 weeks of the bull being turned out.

Talked with a local Charolais breeder who has been doing more ET work and they are going to take 5.

 

[Warren Allison]

I only know of them from years ago. I used to help a breeder show theirs at the NYSF. I was extremely impressed with them. I believe they are derived from Brown Swiss - just meatier. Great milkers - good temperament.
I think they should make great recips.

Seems like back 50 years or so ago, when Chianias first came over, that before they were crossed with Angus, they were crossed with these.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Actually, the Chi's may have been crossed on them - but mostly, they were crossed with Brown Swiss (almost the same!!). The reason was - the 1st cross came out white with a black hide and black nose just like the original PB Chi's. I know, hubby & I drove the roads buying every open Br Swiss we could buy. We had a contract with a farm in OK for every BS vet checked pregnant to Chi. Those were the days!!! yes - 50+ years ago - 1970 & 1971

 

[Warren Allison]

Actually, the Chi's may have been crossed on them - but mostly, they were crossed with Brown Swiss (almost the same!!). The reason was - the 1st cross came out white with a black hide and black nose just like the original PB Chi's. I know, hubby & I drove the roads buying every open Br Swiss we could buy. We had a contract with a farm in OK for every BS vet checked pregnant to Chi. Those were the days!!! yes - 50+ years ago - 1970 & 1971

I thought they were the same....Braunvieh and Brown Swiss. Braunvieh means " Brown Cow". The 1st Chi crosses I saw were Chi-Angus in 1975. I was going to college at UGA, and went by the sale barn on south campus to kill some time. A friend and I were sitting at the very top in the back of the building, and there were 4 Angus ( I thought ) cows down in the ring, waiting on the sale to start. When the ring men came in, I thought: "Dang, are those midgets or kids?" This was back when Angus were still short and squatty. Then the auctioneer came on, and explained what these were, what Chianina were, etc. That fall at a draft horse competition, some people had Chi- Brown Swiss and Chi-Holstein oxen. I am 6' tall, and I could not see over their backs!

Back in the late 90's/early 2000's, when I was getting those Chi X Brahma cows from the bucking stock breeder, I settled on using polled Charolais bulls. Thinking about that now, Braunvieh bulls may have been a better choice, if there were any around here back then.

 

[Ky hills]

Had some neighbors that said they got into crossing Chianina with Brown Swiss years ago. They say the cross was good as long as you didn't mind just getting a calf about every other year.
I've seen some of those full blood Chianina back in the 80's, they could have benefited from the milk of the Brown Swiss, I don't see how some of them milked enough to raise a calf.

 

[Lucky_P]

Those girls oughta work fabulously as recips.
Braunvieh are great cattle...I regret not using Braunvieh genetics until the last 3-4yrs before we liquidated our herd.
Halfblood Braunvieh calves, if they're any color other than black, will take an undeserved price hit if you send them through the sale barn here...but those gals oughta raise good embryo calves for you for the next 15 yrs - they're noted for their longevity.
Dispositions were good on ours, but we did use one sire that was noted for throwing some heat, and both heifers that we got from that cane of semen left as weanlings, as they were flightier than we liked...but we had Angus that were worse...jus' sayin'...

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ky Hills - you are right. No milk. They were strictly a draft animal in Italy. Terrible milkers. They were known to be 7' at the shoulders.

 

[Warren Allison]

Ky Hills - you are right. No milk. They were strictly a draft animal in Italy. Terrible milkers. They were known to be 7' at the shoulders.

I have heard people say that before, but I have never found this to be true. Neiother with Chianiona nor Chi-croisses. I Think maybe when they first were imported to Canada, maybe the best specimens weren't shipped. I dunno. There are the oldest recognized breed in the world, over 2500 years. If those mommas didn't produce enough milk for their calves, then this breed would have been extinct long ago, or at least runts instead of 7' giants. I think people may have made assumptions based on udder size. If yopu could trqansplant the udder foprm a 2400 lob Chi cow to a Corr or Dexter, they'd look like Holsteins waiting to be milked. My client that bred draft oxen, had 6 Holsteins he AI'd to Chi bulls, and 6 Chi cows he AI'd to Holstein bulls. Each cow raised their own calves, and there would be zero difference in the size and weight they weaned, between the Holstein and Chi cows.

I never saw any problems with Chi Angus cows. I have had Chi x Brahma, and Chi x Longhorns, and these cows were calf raising machines. I also had some Chi- Holstein cows in the same time period, but as would be expected, those cows sure enough gave enough milk!

 

[Ky hills]

@Jeanne - Simme Valley the first Chianina cattle I saw I couldn't believe what I was seeing. When I was a child, my father was good friends with a stockyard owner and cattle buyer, went with them one day to our cousins to look at some cows. They had some Chianina cattle, and I thought I was looking at weaned calves, but they were only a couple months old, but as tall or taller than weaning age calves I was used to seeing.
Then when we used to go to cattle shows to see our breed (Charolais) in the early 90's it was fairly common to see the Chianina breed represented too. Alot of the Charolais bulls at the time were 6ft or a little over, those Chi cattle were definitely taller, was used to seeing big cattle at that point, but those cattle were huge.

@Warren Allison I haven't seen a whole lot of Chianina cows, most were at shows, so milking ability at that point in time had significantly dropped in a lot of bloodlines across the board breed wise during the frame race. I saw Chianina cows showing in the cow/calf classes, that literally had very young calves and the udders were seemingly nonexistent. Those cow's udders looked about like 5-6 months bred heifers. I thought at the time those calves were probably being raised on nurse cows or being bottled and creep fed.
I always suspected back then that a few in all mainstream breeds secretly accidentally on purpose crossed in some Chianina blood, the phenotype of most breeds looked suspiciously similar to Chi to me. Most those bloodlines tended to not milk well either.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison I haven't seen a whole lot of Chianina cows, most were at shows, so milking ability at that point in time had significantly dropped in a lot of bloodlines across the board breed wise during the frame race. I saw Chianina cows showing in the cow/calf classes, that literally had very young calves and the udders were seemingly nonexistent. Those cow's udders looked about like 5-6 months bred heifers. I thought at the time those calves were probably being raised on nurse cows or being bottled and creep fed.
I always suspected back then that a few in all mainstream breeds secretly accidentally on purpose crossed in some Chianina blood, the phenotype of most breeds looked suspiciously similar to Chi to me. Most those bloodlines tended to not milk well either.

Well, if you think about it, this was a recognized breed, with pedigree records, since the times of Ancient Rome. No way could a breed of animal that size, ever continue to exist if they didn't have adequate milk for their babies. Udder size doesn't necessarily correlate with milk production. No cow in the world has smaller udders than a Clydesdale or Percheron mare, and they raise a hell of a lot bigger baby, with a lot more demand...volume wise... for milk than any cow. And a draft horse udder isn't that much bigger than a pony's udder. Women built like Twiggy can breast feed their babies, and the babies will be fat as butterballs...the same size as babies with mommas built like Dolly Parton!

In the past 50+ years of seeing, buying, selling and trading Chi cows and Chi cross cows, I have never seen nor heard of a calf starving or being stunted from lack of adequate milk.

 

[Ky hills]

Well, if you think about it, this was a recognized breed, with pedigree records, since the times of Ancient Rome. No way could a breed of animal that size, ever continue to exist if they didn't have adequate milk for their babies. Udder size doesn't necessarily correlate with milk production. No cow in the world has smaller udders than a Clydesdale or Percheron mare, and they raise a hell of a lot bigger baby, with a lot more demand...volume wise... for milk than any cow. And a draft horse udder isn't that much bigger than a pony's udder. Women built like Twiggy can breast feed their babies, and the babies will be fat as butterballs...the same size as babies with mommas built like Dolly Parton!

In the past 50+ years of seeing, buying, selling and trading Chi cows and Chi cross cows, I have never seen nor heard of a calf starving or being stunted from lack of adequate milk.

Yes, no doubt that they had to milk enough to raise calves and continue to be a breed over time. The frame race was a crazy time that most folks would love to forget I'm sure. I think cattle during the 80's and early 90's were the result of a fad gone to the extreme that brought about a lot of negatives across pretty much every breed. From my understanding a lot of the early imported bulls of various breeds were not the pick of the litter so to speak and it showed in their offspring. Charolais, Limousins were well known for various issues early on, I'm sure the Chi cattle and any others were the same story. It takes a while to breed bad out and positive back in from a newly introduced breed to a new country with a limited gene pool to work with in the new area.
The Chi cows that I am talking about that didn't have udders literally looked comparable to a mare's udder. A colt nurses very often, whereas most calves not as often. I have had a few calves born to heifers with very little udder development and they typically perform consistent with that. I prefer cows with smaller udders over larger ones, but there should be at least a neat compact uniform udder there instead of just teats.
No doubt the chi's of today in the US are mostly crossed with Angus and should milk much better then back in that timeframe. It's been 30 years since I've seen a cow known to be a Chi.

 

[Warren Allison]

Yes, no doubt that they had to milk enough to raise calves and continue to be a breed over time. The frame race was a crazy time that most folks would love to forget I'm sure. I think cattle during the 80's and early 90's were the result of a fad gone to the extreme that brought about a lot of negatives across pretty much every breed. From my understanding a lot of the early imported bulls of various breeds were not the pick of the litter so to speak and it showed in their offspring. Charolais, Limousins were well known for various issues early on, I'm sure the Chi cattle and any others were the same story. It takes a while to breed bad out and positive back in from a newly introduced breed to a new country with a limited gene pool to work with in the new area.
The Chi cows that I am talking about that didn't have udders literally looked comparable to a mare's udder. A colt nurses very often, whereas most calves not as often. I have had a few calves born to heifers with very little udder development and they typically perform consistent with that. I prefer cows with smaller udders over larger ones, but there should be at least a neat compact uniform udder there instead of just teats.
No doubt the chi's of today in the US are mostly crossed with Angus and should milk much better then back in that timeframe. It's been 30 years since I've seen a cow known to be a Chi.

No, purebred Chianina don't have any Angus in them. You are thinking of Chi-Angus?

I always preferred big cows. Down here, pasture and hay....feed.. are of no concern, so doesn't matter if the 1800 lbs cows eat more than the 1000 lb cows. And down here, we trailer wean, and try to take them to the sale at 400-450 lbs. A Chi- or Chi cross calf gets to 400 a month or 2 before a Hereford or Angus does. Another thing about Chianina is, they are every bit as insect, parasite and heat tolerant as Brahmas are, and are a good choice for those with an ear and leather prejudice . Also, nothing takes the leather off a Brahma like a Chianina does. This cross will have less ear and leather than an F1 Brangus or Braford. Like a Longhorn though, and unlike a Brahma, they are also extreme cold tolerant as well.

You are correct though, about all the problems with all the Continental breeds over the years. Of course now, Simmentals, Limosines, Gelbievs etc are just Angus anyway. It wont be too much longer til you see black CHarolais advertised, which will also be entirely or mostly Angus. The Chianina is the only Continental breed I think that should ever have been brought over, frankly. As far as I am concerned, the Criollo type cattle brought over 500 years ago was good move. So were the Angus and Hereford ( cause we need Herefords for black baldies, Brafords etc) a couple hundred years later. The Indicus breeds that the American Brahma was developed from was a good move. And so are Chianina. Criollo, Angus, Hereford, Brahman and Chianina.. those are the only 5 breeds we ever needed, or now need, here. With these we can make the Brangus, Braford, Black Hereford, Ultra blacks, Chi-Angus.. all the really successful composite breeds we use today. Chi, Brahma and LH gives us the best plummer cattle for bucking bulls. Although I will say, Charolais does add some athleticism, height in kicks and jumps, to the rodeo bucking bulls, But that is all a Char bull is fit for, IMO.

Now, I am gonna go pop some popcorn, and wait for the sh*t storm of bashing that is sure to follow this! LOL It may even out-do the Corriente thread!!!

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison we both agree that full blood Chianina have no Angus in them. My reference to Chianina in the US having Angus in them now is predominant as the association is mainly for Chi Angus and other crosses that often have very little percentage of Chianina in them.
The full blood Chianina types fell out of favor just like the larger framed cattle of any other breed.
Yes I also agree that most continentals are now just Angus composites.
So I reckon we are both in for a crap storm on that one.
I will disagree though about some other breeds not being useful.
I've been Charolais breeder years ago, and still believe they are the best continental breed for cross breeding.
Simmental, in my opinion has a lot of things to offer both in growth and maternal. They benefited from Angus influence, toned them down frame wise and improved calving.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison we both agree that full blood Chianina have no Angus in them. My reference to Chianina in the US having Angus in them now is predominant as the association is mainly for Chi Angus and other crosses that often have very little percentage of Chianina in them.
The full blood Chianina types fell out of favor just like the larger framed cattle of any other breed.
Yes I also agree that most continentals are now just Angus composites.
So I reckon we are both in for a crap storm on that one.
I will disagree though about some other breeds not being useful.
I've been Charolais breeder years ago, and still believe they are the best continental breed for cross breeding.
Simmental, in my opinion has a lot of things to offer both in growth and maternal. They benefited from Angus influence, toned them down frame wise and improved calving.

Full blooded, registered Chianina have no Angus blood in them at all. ChiAngus, obviously do. 2 different breeds, 2 different registries, and 2 different stud books. I have a broker friend in Mexico, that I regularly send reg Chi bulls to, 1 to some years as many as 6, who then sends them to central and south america, where his clients use them on the Brahma type cows prevalent down there. They won;t accpet even a grade ful blood Chi bull..only registered.

I guess I am basing my opinion on the Continentals on the nightmares of 50 plus years ago, when Simmental and Charolais 1st made their appearances down here. Of course the 1st to hit the sale barns were the bulls. Obviously, Charolais cows and Simmental cows had no problem calving when bred to these pallet-head bulls, but everyone down here had Angus and Herefords. And this was back when Angus and Hereford cows were maybe waist-high in height. Before those bulls showed up, back in the 60's, people had tried Brahma and Gert bulls, with great success. But these 2k bulls had little bullet heads, and their calves had little heads, and the cows didn't have that much problem calving them. Worst thing was injuries from 2k lb bulls mounting 800-1000 lb cows. But God almighty,. did those Char and Simm bulls wreck cow herds all over this part of the country. As a pre-teen and teen aged boy. I reckon I pulled or helped pull...or cut out.. more calves than Dr, Poll has. Neighbors always came and got me, or called for me, because of my small hands and arms I guess. Never wanted no part of no Charolais or Simmental since.

Now, I have to admit that I feel different about Char and Simm cows. About my senior year in high school was the 1st time they had commercial or cross-bred classes at the fairs. My ;little brother had a Hereford-Char heifer ( looked like a yellow Hereford) and his best friend got a Simm X Char heifer ( looked like a yellow Simm) , and they won 1st and 2nd at every show that year all the way to State. One show the Char Simm might get the blue, and the next the Cha Herefored might, but the other always got the red. I think the Char Simm ended up state champ and the other one reserve. It had probably more blues that year then the Char Hereford did. My granddaddy bought them both, and turned them out with his cows. They had many a fine Angus..and a couple of years, Gert...calves. I delivered a bull last year to a man that was breeding his once -registered Char cows to red angus bulls and those orange calves were as good a calves as I saw all year, He'd keep his heifers and breed them to black Simmentals after their 1st calf. . I had taken him a Brangus for his 1st calf heifers.

I will also admit, that when I was buying those Chi X Brahmas and looking for the best bulls to breed to, I ended up with Charolais! 1st year I bred them to tyhe Brangus bulls I used on the Ch- Holstein cows, but too many came out smoky. I had a neighbor that sent me two of his registered polled Charolais bulls, and BAM!! That was the ticket!! No calving problems at all, but the damned cows were half again bigger than the bulls, and the Brahma and Chi blood kept the head size down I guess. If I ever ended up with Chi-Brahma cows again, a Charolais bull is still what I would use. Even with the non-black dock, Id take a pasture full and a Charolais bull, if I were to be in it today. I guess the 3-way heterosis maxed out with this cross, because I swear, you see the calves grow day by day. And those cows had PLENTY of milk.. recon it came from the brahmas? j/k.

I think that instead of turning all these breeds black as a knee-jerk reaction to the CAB program. breeders should have left the Simmentals and Limosines and Gelbievs etc, red. The seed stock producers should have concentrated on developing the best Simm or Lim or Gel cows to cross on Angus bulls. Using homozygous for black Angus and Brangus bulls would have taken care of the calves' color. I think a lot more was lost than gained, by trying to turn these breeds black, myself.

 

[Ky hills]

@Warren Allison again yes I am agreeing with you that full blood Chianina have absolutely no Angus in them at all, and yes Chi Angus do. I looked up the American Chianina Association and yes it looks to me that there are both full blood Chianina and Chi Angus registered through the association.
I agree that a lot was lost when the continental breeds largely became Angus influenced. I think though it was already in the works and just pushed and emphasized further in that direction as most of those breeds had breeding up programs due to most people having Angus or Hereford based herds at the time. So naturally there were a lot of black hided percentage animals already in their registries

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yes, I had black 1/2 bloods back in 1972. I never bred to a black Simmental bull until I raised the bull in my avatar (born 2002). He was Homo Black & Homo Polled, so my herd got black in a heartbeat. In my opinion, Angus gave us the color, and helped us lower the height, but over the years, they sure gave us a lot of bad legs and feet that we are still working out of the pedigrees. We already had post legged cattle due to breeding for height - along with most of the frame chasers (all breeds for a while). Fortunately, my husband was strong on structure, good feet and easy keeping cattle. And we have always used "the numbers" as a tool. Never bred for them. Pays off.