Modified Live and abortion

[TCRanch]

So much for a picture perfect weaning. Two of the calves somehow managed to bust outta prison and made it back to the central pasture. One of the dams is a cull, currently shut in the barnyard and she's being sold tomorrow. But the other calf found her mama and was happily nursing away when I found her this morning.

Vet suggested upping my game this year and using Vista Once (mod live) instead of Triangle 4+PH-K. I don't use a mod live on my cows and the insert clearly states Do not use in calves nursing pregnant cows unless their dams were vaccinated within the past 12 months as described above. My vet mentioned the possibility of abortion but I can't find any literature that really explains it. The cow reunited with her calf was bred first part of June.

Anyone have any experience with this? Specifically, the likelihood she'll abort?

 

[SBMF 2015]

Chances are very slim that she will abort.
Why don't you use Mod live vaccines on your cows? The protection is greater and the vaccines are less expensive than killed vaccines.

I started with Bovi Shield Gold FP 5VL5 probably 12 years ago. Vaccinated the cows the first time when they were open, booster in the fall and every fall since. No problems aborting calves. I switch vaccine companies every year on a 3 or 4 year rotation.

 

[TCRanch]

Good to know, thanks. She's not a fave (she's the one that kicked the ever lovin' snot outta me last winter) but she's a beautiful 8 year old Simm/Angus with a perfect bag, I've never had to doctor her for anything and she raises a huge calf.

Honestly, I've always been a little scared of mod live; killed vaccines just seem safer. This year was the first year I used Inforce 3 on my newborns. Never compared price, other than any mod live that isn't used is trash. And I'm the anal poster child when it comes to working cattle: all vaccines are ready in pre-filled, disposable syringes/needles and bagged/labeled in separate coolers. Time management. And yet, it wasn't a big deal, using the mod live this time. I did still use disposable needles with a new one for every calf.

 

[MurraysMutts]

I'm still taking mine to the vet.
Any bred cows get triangle. He says the other CAN cause abortions.
For now I'm doing what he says.

My grasshoppers mama and one other was hit with something other than triangle.
I think that's why grasshopper was so small.
The other slipped her calf. She was open when I sold her. Fact is, both were. After being with a bull for several months.

 

[TCRanch]

I'm still taking mine to the vet.
Any bred cows get triangle. He says the other CAN cause abortions.
For now I'm doing what he says.

My grasshoppers mama and one other was hit with something other than triangle.
I think that's why grasshopper was so small.
The other slipped her calf. She was open when I sold her. Fact is, both were. After being with a bull for several months.

Well, that's another reason I have avoided a mod live. When we work cattle in the spring (generally first couple weeks of May), there are still usually a couple stragglers that haven't calved. But when I weaned, I held back 3 calves (one set of twins) and they got a 2nd dose of Triangle 4+PH-K instead of the Vista Once. Don't see why I can't give any remaining pregnant cows a killed (usually Vira Shield 6VL5 HP) and the rest a mod live like Bovi Shield Gold. My retained heifers do get a 5 way VL5 when they get their BANGS & pelvic measured. Dunno. This will entail subsequent conversations with my vet.

 

[MurraysMutts]

Well, that's another reason I have avoided a mod live. When we work cattle in the spring (generally first couple weeks of May), there are still usually a couple stragglers that haven't calved. But when I weaned, I held back 3 calves (one set of twins) and they got a 2nd dose of Triangle 4+PH-K instead of the Vista Once. Don't see why I can't give any remaining pregnant cows a killed (usually Vira Shield 6VL5 HP) and the rest a mod live like Bovi Shield Gold. My retained heifers do get a 5 way VL5 when they get their BANGS & pelvic measured. Dunno. This will entail subsequent conversations with my vet.

My vet is very matter of fact about it. Lol
I cant get much explanation out of him. Fact is a lot of folks dont care for the way he does things, or talks. But what they do, works!
As closed as my heard is, I've considered not vaccinating, but I figure I'm asking for trouble if I do that.
A friend took a group of his early last year. First time this vet started using pinkeye vaccines. He swears that's why all his cows had pinkeye that year. Mine did too. It was just bad that year. The ones I vaccinated and the ones I didnt. But! The ones i did, seemed to get over it faster

 

[TCRanch]

@MurraysMutts, the pinkeye vaccine had nothing to do with the outbreak this year - it did not cause it (like getting the flu shot causes the flu?!). You're not far from me and pinkeye is rampant this year, regardless of whether they're vaccinated. That said, so far none of my cows have had it (just calves), presumably because they've built up a considerable amount of immunity.

And yes, you may be asking for trouble if you don't vaccinate. Do you have neighbors with cattle? And are they fully vaccinated? Bad stuff travels.

 

[MurraysMutts]

@MurraysMutts, the pinkeye vaccine had nothing to do with the outbreak this year - it did not cause it (like getting the flu shot causes the flu?!). You're not far from me and pinkeye is rampant this year, regardless of whether they're vaccinated. That said, so far none of my cows have had it (just calves), presumably because they've built up a considerable amount of immunity.

And yes, you may be asking for trouble if you don't vaccinate. Do you have neighbors with cattle? And are they fully vaccinated? Bad stuff travels.

My thoughts exactly. There is cattle to the north. Seperated by a couple acres but still, I dont like it.

Knock on wood! But I've been very fortunate on the pinkeye issue this year. May be the mineral. (That's new practice for me) May be the vaccines.
The friend I mentioned earlier, has had some pinkeye issues. 2 miles away. And 8 r 10 miles away. Swore they wouldnt do that pinkeye vaccine again.

 

[TCRanch]

Ha! One calf that busted out of prison, made it back to the central pasture and couldn't find his cull mama, never did hook up with the remaining calves (held back 3 plus his partner in crime). Went out this afternoon and he was completely away from the herd, standing in front of the corner/exit gate. Guess he wanted back with his buddies. Opened the gate, walked him kitty-corner across the road and he's back where he belongs. Bless his stupid little heart, he went to all that trouble for nothing.

 

[sstterry]

Do not use in calves nursing pregnant cows unless their dams were vaccinated within the past 12 months as described above. My vet mentioned the possibility of abortion but I can't find any literature that really explains it. The cow reunited with her calf was bred first part of June.

Pardon my ignorance, but how can giving a MLV to a calf that is nursing cause the mother to abort. Is there a danger the calf could pass the MLV to the mother through nursing?

 

[SBMF 2015]

Pardon my ignorance, but how can giving a MLV to a calf that is nursing cause the mother to abort. Is there a danger the calf could pass the MLV to the mother through nursing?

I think that's the concern. I'm not 100% sure, but it must have been a big enough problem that the vaccine companies have that statement on the packaging.

 

[Son of Butch]

Pardon my ignorance, but how can giving a MLV to a calf that is nursing cause the mother to abort. Is there a danger the calf could pass the MLV to the mother through nursing?

Nursing calves obviously have nose to nose contact with their mothers.
Licking noses is not social distancing. - lol

 

[simme]

Pardon my ignorance, but how can giving a MLV to a calf that is nursing cause the mother to abort. Is there a danger the calf could pass the MLV to the mother through nursing?

This is what I remember. MLV vaccines generate a stronger reaction than killed virus vaccines. When you vaccinate a nursing calf with MLV vaccine, the calf reacts to the vaccine and sheds some "virus related" (is that the right phrase?) particles. If the recently bred cow has never been vaccinated with that MLV vaccine, the close contact between the calf and the cow MAY generate a response in the cow that leads to abortion. If the cow has been previously vaccinated with the MLV, she won't respond in that way. Although I may not have the facts 100% correct, that is the general story. There have been MLV vaccines for a long time. Only started to hear of this risk 10 years or so ago. Whether the path of transmission is through the teat - I have never heard that. I think just the close contact.

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks for the replies! I couldn't find anything that really spelled it out - how it was possible for a nursing calf to transmit to the dam. Nose to nose makes sense.

As far as whether it's possible to cause an abortion, makes me wonder if it's a warning similar to sodium iodide (for woody tongue, lump jaw). It may, but I've never had it happen.

 

[sstterry]

Thanks Simme. I knew that the MLV provided a more active response.

 

[sstterry]

This is what I remember. MLV vaccines generate a stronger reaction than killed virus vaccines. When you vaccinate a nursing calf with MLV vaccine, the calf reacts to the vaccine and sheds some "virus related" (is that the right phrase?) particles. If the recently bred cow has never been vaccinated with that MLV vaccine, the close contact between the calf and the cow MAY generate a response in the cow that leads to abortion. If the cow has been previously vaccinated with the MLV, she won't respond in that way. Although I may not have the facts 100% correct, that is the general story. There have been MLV vaccines for a long time. Only started to hear of this risk 10 years or so ago. Whether the path of transmission is through the teat - I have never heard that. I think just the close contact.

I have been thinking about this since reading it this afternoon. Even if a cow had received a killed cell vaccine, with the appropriate boosters, shouldn't she still have resistance to any virus shed by a calf that had received a MLV?

 

[wbvs58]

I would think so as that is the purpose of vaccinating with the killed vaccine with appropriate boosters. I don't know what diseases you are vaccinating for with these MLV and killed vaccines but I assume BVD is one of them and seeing that the MLV gives protection against BVD then I would hope that the reverse would be the case in that the immunity the killed vaccine gave against BVD would work against the exposure to MLV.

Ken

 

[simme]

I have been thinking about this since reading it this afternoon. Even if a cow had received a killed cell vaccine, with the appropriate boosters, shouldn't she still have resistance to any virus shed by a calf that had received a MLV?

MLV Vaccines for Reproduction - Lucky_P

Vaccines such as Bovi-Shield (Pfizer) for fetal protection cause abortion if the cow or heifer has not been exposed to the MLV vaccine. My question is this; if the cow or heifer was previously vaccinated with a killed virus vaccine, why wouldn't the killed virus vaccine protect the cow or...

www.cattletoday.com

Same question was asked by Ron in 2013. Lucky_P gave an answer to that specific question. It MAY cause an abortion. I think you might be more likely to get the Covid if you don't wear your mask than you are to abort a cow by using a MLV on her calf.

 

[Dempster]

The biggest risk when giving a MLV to a calf on an unvaccinated dam is the possibility that some of the vaccine runs back out the injection site and is licked off right away by the dam. Theoretically, there could be some viral replication in the mouth that is passed through the teat when the calf nurses, but that probably isn't much more than a theory. If you talk to the technical people with the vaccine companies, most of them have never found a case where a vaccinated calf caused an abortion in an unvaccinated cow.

Killed products are not going to give you the protection you need to reduce this possibility. Protection is just a lot poorer with killed products.

Additionally, truth be told, Vista probably offers the poorest protection of the 3 main MLV lines (Bovishield, Pyramid, and Vista).

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Simme gave a good explanation.
A Killed Vaccine only gives about 6 months protection. MLV gives at least 1 year protection and is cheaper.
My newborns get Inforce 3 at birth, then BS5L5HB at 3 months and again at 4 months. Then they don't need anything just prior to weaning, but after they are completely weaned and "stress free", I vaccinate again. Then my replacement heifers get the MLV each fall thereafter.
It doesn't make any difference WHEN during the year they get the MLV, just so the cows get it each 12 months.
IF you choose to use Killed vaccine, be sure you give the booster as recommended - otherwise, you gave your calf/cow NO protection. Should have just squirted it out on the ground. One shot - 0 protection.
I repeat the MLV at 3 months and 4 months because NO vaccine is 100% affective, and you need to booster 1 component of the shot, so if I am going to stab them, it might as well be with the full product and be pretty dang sure they will have 100% coverage.