Breeding Advice

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Running R

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Hi, new to the forum. Need some help.
Sold most of my cows and I am down to a few high quality females: couple of registered red angus, registered shorthorns, registered charolais , few good looking F1s and some killer F2s. Starting a modest herd to produce a limited number of colored calves.
We do our own AI-ing, here at our place.
I am fairly knowledgeable on genetics (retired veterinarian, etc, etc) but I would appreciate hearing from those with experience.
My first question: what is the optimal genotype (and phenotype) to cross on my RA cows to produce colored calves? I'm thinking roans and some of the bright orange parti-color (pied) I see every now and then.
Any advice or insight would be deeply appreciated.
Thanks, Pete
 
Pete,
Retired veterinarian here, as well...just liquidated our herd, completely.
Have done some crossbreeding with Shorthorn sites over AN and SimAngus cows over last 10 years.
You'd get killed on the roans and spots at the sale barns here...hit is bad enough on solid reds.
Kinda depends on what you're going for...club calves or commercial beef animals...
Cattle Visions has best selection of SH and club calf sires.
If I were going for roans out of RA cows, I'd look first at HP Manimal 1C.
 
Thanks, Doc.
Our area does not suffer from Black Hide Derangement Syndrome. In fact, the markets in CO an WY are trending toward Red cows and red out-crosses. We transitioned from black cattle (BA and Simmental) because of it. The feeders (not so much the finishers) are telling us they want, good fleshed, moderate framed, red F1s. They love the heterosis.
My whole intent on this venture is to step back from the registered cattle rat-race and raise commercial stock to keep me from getting into too much trouble. We have strong sale yards in this area and do not take hits on red feeders. Anything unusual, and/or pretty goes for a premium to the small operator or club calf market.

Thanks for the tips; I'll get right on your referrals.

What are your recommendations for blue roan calves? My best cow is a blue roan heterozygous black (simmental x shorthorn) F1. I would love a blue calf out of her, but I gather that is a bit tricky.

Any thoughts on the orange "paints"?

Thanks for the help, Pete
 
I would suggest Normande. They are spotted with brindling inside their colored spots. Not many here in the US but you can get semen easily. If you want color Normande is the way to go in my opinion. Here is a picture of one of our heifer calves "Tiger Butter".
 
How about speckle park, i am a red poll breeder and now dabbling in speckle park. Have not got any crosses yet but excited to see what they can do. Seen some very impressive crosses with other breeds. Just concerned about growth rates so will have to work that out myself.
 
No experience with 'yellow paints' other than some of the old-style Simmental sires we used back in the 1980s. I've spent the last 20 years trying to breed out the color dilution and spot genes.
Your best shot for a blue roan calf out of that cow is a white bull - they're homozygous for the roaning trait. Still, you could also get a white or a red roan calf. It's a roll of the dice.
 
Not familiar with Normande. I will start my research and see where it takes me.
Thanks for the tip.
P
 
Thought about this but, again, I have no experiences here. I will plow into the research. I love the hides on these animals but know nothing else about them. Thanks for the tip.
Are their coats homozygous for blue roaning? Do you occasionally get different colored calves with a bl rn X bl rn?
Fascinating look!
Did you breed a bl rn to a red poll shorthorn? What would you like to see from that breeding?
Where did you get your semen (or bull)?
Thank you for your help, very interesting!
P
 
Lucky_P said:
No experience with 'yellow paints' other than some of the old-style Simmental sires we used back in the 1980s. I've spent the last 20 years trying to breed out the color dilution and spot genes.
Your best shot for a blue roan calf out of that cow is a white bull - they're homozygous for the roaning trait. Still, you could also get a white or a red roan calf. It's a roll of the dice.
Click to expand...

Finally!!
I have spent considerable time reviewing coat color genetics, including the classic publications (Ibsen, Olson, et al). I have never seen anyone call white shorthorn bulls homozygous for roaning. I completely concur.
White colors seem to arise from genes in different ways depending on the breed. It is my opinion that dilution and roaning are dominant modifiers while spotting, belting, white facing and parti-coloring are specific alleles that are phenotypically dominant.
Got it with the white bull on my blue roan cow. That makes a lot of sense.
Do you consider all white shorthorn bulls to be homozygous white? Can they be heterozygous white with red in recession?
What breeds are you trying to get rid of dilution and spotting?
BTW, back when I was in college (in the 60s), most simmentals were red with and occasional brindle.
Thanks for the wisdom.
Pete
 
Redgully said:
How about speckle park, i am a red poll breeder and now dabbling in speckle park. Have not got any crosses yet but excited to see what they can do. Seen some very impressive crosses with other breeds. Just concerned about growth rates so will have to work that out myself.
Click to expand...
Thought about this but, again, I have no experiences here. I will plow into the research. I love the hides on these animals but know nothing else about them. Thanks for the tip.
Are their coats homozygous for blue roaning? Do you occasionally get different colored calves with a bl rn X bl rn?
Fascinating look!
Did you breed a bl rn to a red poll shorthorn? What would you like to see from that breeding?
Where did you get your semen (or bull)?
Thank you for your help, very interesting!
 
On your RA and Char cows, I like a good Limi bull. We have had success on both crosses. The orange Char(and char F1s)XLimi calves were scale crushers and replacements made good mamas. LimiXRA is a sought after cross. The calves seem to be the best of both worlds. I have a RA bull sired by Hamley that has done phenomenal on our Limi cows and one of his purebred RA daughters that crosses well with my Limi bulls. In fact, that female just weaned off her first calf, a bull that may be the best bull I have ever raised. Moderate, but with a really good growth curve and as close to flawless phenotype on a young bull as I have seen in a while. I have no idea how the cross would work on Shorthorns....

HP Manimal was bred by a friend of mine. I like a lot of things about him. I'm not a huge fan of the bull's shoulder, but his calves seem to be better in that regard. I have also noticed, his offspring look very green as weanlings. Not that that's a bad thing (in fact, I prefer it that way!), but if you plan to sell clubbies every fall, it is worth noting.
 
Boot Jack Bulls said:
On your RA and Char cows, I like a good Limi bull. We have had success on both crosses. The orange Char(and char F1s)XLimi calves were scale crushers and replacements made good mamas. LimiXRA is a sought after cross. The calves seem to be the best of both worlds. I have a RA bull sired by Hamley that has done phenomenal on our Limi cows and one of his purebred RA daughters that crosses well with my Limi bulls. In fact, that female just weaned off her first calf, a bull that may be the best bull I have ever raised. Moderate, but with a really good growth curve and as close to flawless phenotype on a young bull as I have seen in a while. I have no idea how the cross would work on Shorthorns....

HP Manimal was bred by a friend of mine. I like a lot of things about him. I'm not a huge fan of the bull's shoulder, but his calves seem to be better in that regard. I have also noticed, his offspring look very green as weanlings. Not that that's a bad thing (in fact, I prefer it that way!), but if you plan to sell clubbies every fall, it is worth noting.
Click to expand...
Interesting. Are you consistently getting the orange/apricot color out of your RA x Limi and Char x Limi F1 calves? Is it solid, roan or parti-colored? My experience with them is limited but I assume one looks for a homozygote for both red color and polling. Am I wrong? Are the semen registries consistent in determining heterozygous (for black) and/or polling?
What do your F2s look like when you go back to F1 Char x Limi?
Make no mistake, my cows (about 20…I'm detuning) are high-altitude, rugged, beef machines. Good milkers, heavy on docility. For me there is now enough butt, back, leg and front out there in the semen available to allow me to focus on color. My objective is to market a limited number of clubbies as weaners, solid beefers as replacements and the rest as feeders. Maybe hold a few for early feeding here on our place. Just trying to sneek in some premiums where I can.
Thanks for the interesting advice.
Pete
 
They were all solid peachy/blonde colored, using red Limi bulls. Pretty much the same results when we crossed them back to red Limis for "f2" cross. These were good, rugged commercial range cows brought in by the pot load from MT/WY/CO. We also had success with the one purebred show Char female we had that we crossed back onto the Limi bulls. Very typey calves, solid peaches and smokes (black Limi in that case). We did show steers out of these crosses, but only at a county fair level. I would say only 1 or 2 would have what it would have taken to compete at state fair here.

Given your goals, I would be tempted to pick out a handful of females to breed to a clubby or more show type bull and breed the rest to a more maternal or growth oriented bull. The goals you stated are too antogonistic to satisfy completely with one type of mating. A bull like Primo (angus) will give you show ring appeal and growth, and should make smokes on your chars and blue roans on your Shorthorns. He is proven to produce competitive cattle. He probably won't make scale crushing feeders for anything not going to a show ring, but I don't think they will be horrible on performance. I can't think of a Limi bull available on a national level at this time that will do everything you want either, as much as it pains me to say. I don't find many in the glossy mags that have the performance and phenotype I demand in one package. I have some in my pasture and some old ones in my tank, but I may be prejudiced in my opinion on those ones lol!
 
Boot Jack Bulls said:
They were all solid peachy/blonde colored, using red Limi bulls. Pretty much the same results when we crossed them back to red Limis for "f2" cross. These were good, rugged commercial range cows brought in by the pot load from MT/WY/CO. We also had success with the one purebred show Char female we had that we crossed back onto the Limi bulls. Very typey calves, solid peaches and smokes (black Limi in that case). We did show steers out of these crosses, but only at a county fair level. I would say only 1 or 2 would have what it would have taken to compete at state fair here.

Given your goals, I would be tempted to pick out a handful of females to breed to a clubby or more show type bull and breed the rest to a more maternal or growth oriented bull. The goals you stated are too antogonistic to satisfy completely with one type of mating. A bull like Primo (angus) will give you show ring appeal and growth, and should make smokes on your chars and blue roans on your Shorthorns. He is proven to produce competitive cattle. He probably won't make scale crushing feeders for anything not going to a show ring, but I don't think they will be horrible on performance. I can't think of a Limi bull available on a national level at this time that will do everything you want either, as much as it pains me to say. I don't find many in the glossy mags that have the performance and phenotype I demand in one package. I have some in my pasture and some old ones in my tank, but I may be prejudiced in my opinion on those ones lol!
Click to expand...
Great advice!!
I'm piggybacking my herd on the back of my son, a red angus seed stock producer. We AI ourselves multiple times with multiple synchings. It's a pain in the ass but well worth it down the line.
Thus, I have the luxury of selecting individual bulls from a galaxy of breeds and phenotypes to match my individual cows (I only have 20 presently). If they don't stick they will be covered by my son's RA bulls as pasture bred in the high country. He is a fanatic for genetics and EPDs so I have a killer red genome as a back-up that produces some serious heterotic calves. Our calves do well in the sale yard.
I have no intention of showing or competing at any level but over the years I have sold my roans and coloreds for a premium. There were three people in my region who were selling clubbies and they stopped doing it. (One died, one liquidated and the other lost interest.) The market here seems to be open and unexplored.
I will look back on Primo (I have a lot of experience with BA) and I will keep looking for that beefy Limi. Let me know if you have any of those ghosts you'd be willing to part with out of your secret tank!
Thank you for sharing, I have a much better perspective now.
Pete
 
I think you are in a good position to play with your matings a bit and see what you can come up with. Bulls like Primo, Slider, Roundtable, Outsider (char), Rhinestone (Char), Firewater (char), Crown Royal (Limi), Card Shark (RA) and Hamely (RA) are proven to produce really attractive stock. You should be able to produce some smokes, creams and roans with eye appeal pretty easily if your cows are fairly decent.
As for those old ghosts, they are a bit different than the current main stream. We built our herd on Wulfs Nasa and Wulfs Nobel Prize, and BR Midland. I am fortunate to still have some of each in the tank to go back on when the mood strikes. I think I even have some Montezuma (char) from years ago lol! I also have a haul of old Express Ranches embryos that we picked up on their Limi dispersal years ago. The others are of bulls we bred and some that are still walking our pastures at 9 and 10 years old. Those were not certified collections though....
 
Boot Jack Bulls said:
I think you are in a good position to play with your matings a bit and see what you can come up with. Bulls like Primo, Slider, Roundtable, Outsider (char), Rhinestone (Char), Firewater (char), Crown Royal (Limi), Card Shark (RA) and Hamely (RA) are proven to produce really attractive stock. You should be able to produce some smokes, creams and roans with eye appeal pretty easily if your cows are fairly decent.
As for those old ghosts, they are a bit different than the current main stream. We built our herd on Wulfs Nasa and Wulfs Nobel Prize, and BR Midland. I am fortunate to still have some of each in the tank to go back on when the mood strikes. I think I even have some Montezuma (char) from years ago lol! I also have a haul of old Express Ranches embryos that we picked up on their Limi dispersal years ago. The others are of bulls we bred and some that are still walking our pastures at 9 and 10 years old. Those were not certified collections though....
Click to expand...
Sweet!!
What good advice and great stories. Hats off.
Hope I can pull this off.
P
 
Running R said:
Redgully said:
How about speckle park, i am a red poll breeder and now dabbling in speckle park. Have not got any crosses yet but excited to see what they can do. Seen some very impressive crosses with other breeds. Just concerned about growth rates so will have to work that out myself.
Click to expand...
Thought about this but, again, I have no experiences here. I will plow into the research. I love the hides on these animals but know nothing else about them. Thanks for the tip.
Are their coats homozygous for blue roaning? Do you occasionally get different colored calves with a bl rn X bl rn?
Fascinating look!
Did you breed a bl rn to a red poll shorthorn? What would you like to see from that breeding?
Where did you get your semen (or bull)?
Thank you for your help, very interesting!
Click to expand...

I have seen and tried a few crosses with the red polls and more often than not you get orange. Charolais gives a very light ginger. Never had roan but have some maine anjou semen i want to try. Very interested to try speckle park and see what i get. I am in Australia and semen on most breeds is readily available. Not much we can't get and most breeders will have semen of bulls they bred and collected themselves but never use. Very handy for getting cheap semen!
 
Fascinating.
I am doing my research on Speckle Park. Still trying to determine the genome.
Please let me know what your crosses were and what you end up with.
BTW, this may sound stupid but when do you calve in Australia?
Thanks,
Pete
 
Running R said:
Fascinating.
I am doing my research on Speckle Park. Still trying to determine the genome.
Please let me know what your crosses were and what you end up with.
BTW, this may sound stupid but when do you calve in Australia?
Thanks,
Pete
Click to expand...

Speckle park do have an intetesting make up, shorthorn, british white and angus. They do carry a red gene but can't be registered if red. The crosses i have seen have held a strong speckle look if the bull was speckled. With red polls i have crossed simmental, guernsey, red angus and hereford. Always got red, orange or shades of red with white patches. I have seen them crossed with jersey (light orange) angus (black with copper shine) and charolais, light orange. There is a guy close by trying to make a new breed with a red poll grey brahman cross. Haven't seen them but suspect they will look like senepol cattle with floppy ears. In Australia where i come from most calve in march or September, which is basically spring or autumn. But there is a lot who calve year round because we don't get very cold here.
 

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