Your thoughts about hay quality
- Thread starter Jogeephus
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BC
Well-known member
Hay quality is affected by such factors as maturity
at harvest, soil fertility, nutritional status of
the plant, available moisture during the growing
season, season of the year, ratio of leaves to
stems, stem size, weed control, foreign matter,
harvesting, weather at harvest and storage. Of all
factors, the most important is stage of maturity or
age of the plant at harvest.
at harvest, soil fertility, nutritional status of
the plant, available moisture during the growing
season, season of the year, ratio of leaves to
stems, stem size, weed control, foreign matter,
harvesting, weather at harvest and storage. Of all
factors, the most important is stage of maturity or
age of the plant at harvest.
hayray
Well-known member
BC":3eafx0yk said:
Well I gotta' say that about sums it all up.
Ray
OP
OP
Jogeephus
Well-known member
Beefy":173p8xil said:
That has really been my point all along. One of my best friends retired from the experiment station and he worked with grasses all his life. He was a good man and he taught me a lot about hay and the nutrional quality. I was just trying to find out how many on this board actually cared enough about the actual nutrional quality of the hay they use in their operation. He taught me how to grow what he called "feed hay". With this, you need nothing else during the winter months. The problem though is that a person could not grow this quality hay and sell it for very much of a profit. I have watched contract hay people grow hay and just wondered what "good" hay actually is. Until I made this post, I would call most of the hay I see selling for $28 - $35 a roll around here - not good hay. But now I think I see why he called it "feed hay". So from now on I have my own definition of the types of hay - 1. filler hay 2. good hay 3. Feed hay
The zebra is my neighbors. He likes to buy different things like that. I like it too but don't turn your back on her! He's also got buffalo and a bunch of other neat stuff along with about 800 head. I like to go by there every now and then cause you never know what he is going to drag up on the cattle trailer.
hayray
Well-known member
Jogeephus":ki11a6gf said:
Those are really good categories that make sense to me. I think that for those of us that bale a lot of hay you are probably going to end up with all three types of those hays. By reading every one else' post it seems that every part of the country has different problems that make it pretty hard to get consistent quality hay.
hayray":1ytj74s2 said:
I think you're right. We always strive for 'feed quality' hay, but Mother Nature doesn't always cooperate and we end up with just 'good hay'. Don't get me wrong - we've put up our share of 'filler' hay, too, but that is generally used for our own animals and is not for sale. In the event someone wants to buy it, it does not sell for the usual price.
hayray
Well-known member
msscamp":ss284us3 said:
And there ya go, I always think of out West being so easy to get good hay put up because of your great drying conditions, but just goes to show everybody has problems with this.
hayray":31equuys said:
We have the same problems as everyone else - last summer we couldn't get the hay put up to save our lives. First cutting laid in the field for 19 days because of rain. It would dry, we'd rake it, and it would rain again. 3rd cutting was baled damp just to get it off the field before it killed it. 4th cutting was the only cutting that didn't have rain. This summer 1st cutting got sprinkled on, 2nd and 3rd were excellent, but we're having major problems getting 4th put up because the weather has cooled off, we're getting showers, and it's not drying.
GMN
Well-known member
Anyway, my question is about hay quality and what others look for. One guy I know says any hay is good hay as long as it is cheap-quote:
This I don't agree with, cheap hay is usually just that, cheap, late cutting, lots of weeds, over mature. Good hay quality depends on so many things, alfalfa gets better with the more cuttings, usually the 3rd or 4th cutting is better than the first. Wheras orchardgrass/fescue here in MO, cut in May is good quality. if we get the rain, alot of people get 2nd cuttings of orchardgrass in August and September, my bet is that we like to buy orchardgrass cut in May, is better quality than in Sept.
Last year I went looking to buy some bales, called this guy, said he had clover/grass hay, 5x6 bales, just awesome hay, I got there, and it was horrible, slimy, brown, and not just brown a little bit, way into the bale, I wouldn't have bought the stuff for $1 a bale it was that bad. The bales I bet didn't even weigh 500lbs, and they were not 5x6 bales.
You get what you pay for.
GMN
This I don't agree with, cheap hay is usually just that, cheap, late cutting, lots of weeds, over mature. Good hay quality depends on so many things, alfalfa gets better with the more cuttings, usually the 3rd or 4th cutting is better than the first. Wheras orchardgrass/fescue here in MO, cut in May is good quality. if we get the rain, alot of people get 2nd cuttings of orchardgrass in August and September, my bet is that we like to buy orchardgrass cut in May, is better quality than in Sept.
Last year I went looking to buy some bales, called this guy, said he had clover/grass hay, 5x6 bales, just awesome hay, I got there, and it was horrible, slimy, brown, and not just brown a little bit, way into the bale, I wouldn't have bought the stuff for $1 a bale it was that bad. The bales I bet didn't even weigh 500lbs, and they were not 5x6 bales.
You get what you pay for.
GMN
OP
OP
Jogeephus
Well-known member
GMN":139j7jo8 said:
I agree with you. I've have learned that the word "good" is very subjective and varies from person to person. Good hay in parts of Texas right now would probably be any hay. I've had the same experience you have had when buying "good hay". This is why - even though extension says its cheaper to buy hay - I raise my own. I'm picky. Now, if it don't splatter when it hits the ground - I can only blame myself.
Here is a pic of what I call "good hay" or rather feed quality stuff
GMN
Well-known member
Its hard to tell by a picture, but at least it is green in the middle.
We put up our own hay also, past few years though we have not had enough, so we had to buy, and I know in looking for hay I like to see green in orchardgrass, no weeds, and I like to smell it also.
We have bought alfalfa from kansas that was just awesome stuff, almost too high in protein for my dairy cows, lots of leaves, very little stems, they eat that like cotton candy.
I consider cheap hay to be just a filler, they don't gain on it, and if its really bad, it will be negative feed for them, plus just a waste of money for you.
GMN
We put up our own hay also, past few years though we have not had enough, so we had to buy, and I know in looking for hay I like to see green in orchardgrass, no weeds, and I like to smell it also.
We have bought alfalfa from kansas that was just awesome stuff, almost too high in protein for my dairy cows, lots of leaves, very little stems, they eat that like cotton candy.
I consider cheap hay to be just a filler, they don't gain on it, and if its really bad, it will be negative feed for them, plus just a waste of money for you.
GMN
cowtrek
Well-known member
I'll throw this in from an old haying book I have from the 60's, but it's just as true today as it was then and as it will always be:
Hay is the highest quality it will ever be the moment it's cut. Quality starts to deteriorate from the moment it's cut to the moment it's fed. It's minimizing that deterioration that makes the difference between 'feed' hay and bad hay.
You can have the best fertilized weed free perfect stand of bermudagrass (or alfalfa or whatever) at the perfect stage of growth, optimum protien, TDN, ADF, etc. and if you fumble the ball during haymaking end up with a product inferior to well-handled prairie hay. Once the cutting has begun it's a race to get it put up properly in the best way possible. How well you manage haymaking is just as important as having an excellent stand to cut to begin with. That said, the old computer saying "garbage in garbage out" still applies, as you can't make hay that is any better than what you start with when you cut and if it's over mature, weedy, etc. that is going to limit how good it will be from the start, BUT you can take 'perfect' bermuda (or anything else) and screw it up so bad you've got cardboard in the end anyway.
I see a lot of guys (practically all) around here cut beautiful fertilized sprayed bermuda pastures and then leave it laying flat in the sun for up to a week, sometimes more, before they'll ever even rake it, let alone bale it. Most guys want to run the rake right ahead of the baler. This is wrong in our climate. Further north where the sun is not so intense and the drying conditions take longer it's better to leave it flat in the swath. But when it's in the high 90's and the sun heats you like a furnace, most hay won't take but 3 days to be ready for round baling. The book I have says that hay should be raked at 50% moisture-- that's about the equivalent of just wilted flat, but still bright green or JUST starting to turn from bright shiny green to the duller flat green. Usually this works out to cutting one day, raking the next day, and it's dried enough in the windrow to be ready for baling the third day. Put it in a windrow raked right so the stems are out and you protect most of your leaves from sunburn, which causes the carotene in the leaves to turn to Vitamin D which is worth a lot less to the cow nutritionally. Hay should be a good green color when it is properly baled. But I still see most of the guys cut bermuda and let it roast until it's as gold as wheat straw before they'll bale it. It's what I call 'cardboard hay'. Most guys will pay any price for it because 'it's fertilized bermuda' but it's been so mishandled I'd put my plain prairie hay up against it for quality. Just goes to show most guys don't really know what they're looking at or for when they buy hay.
Hay WILL continue to dry in the windrow, how much depends on local conditions. Farther north it will dry less in the windrow than it will in the swath, but here in this heat and with the burning heat of the sun, it will dry almost as quickly in the windrow as in the swath, but in the swath only the grass on top is getting the full sunburn effect; the hay inside and on bottom of the windrow is shaded and drying but will stay bright green. In the swath it will nearly ALL turn brown from sunburn before it's raked. That green color is the quickest way to spot 'good' hay. Yes, raking it into windrows a day early exposes you to the risk it'll get rained on, and yes I'd rather have it flat in the swath than in a windrow if it's going to get rained on, but the quality is far more at risk from sunburn than getting a rain or shower on it in the windrow. That's where watching the weather (not the weatherman necessarily), luck, and the Lord come into play in getting it cut and in the bale before it gets rained on. For the first time in about 2-3 years, I had some rained on this year in the windrow. It took me two more trips with the rake around the windrows with the rolabar rake, one to spread the windrow out and one to roll it back over again after it dried. Was the quality as good as if it hadn't been rained on; no of course not. But hay the neighbor cut the same day and left out there a week that was rained on CERTAINLY wasn't better!
Storage is another way that even 'perfect' hay put up under ideal conditions can turn to crap or suffer major losses. I see guys stacking round bales round side to round side like beer cans in a case and that's wrong too. Water runs down in between and rots the sides. Bales should ALWAYS be flat end to flat end and adjacent rows have at least a foot between for moisture and air movement. I put mine on pallets. Wish I had a barn but I don't. I'm thinking about double stacking and tarping too, but I'm not sure if it's worth it since I feed most of my hay out every year and only carry over 10 or 15 bales at most and feed those first the next fall.
Anyway, don't overlook how hay is handled after it's cut. That's at least as important as how it was handled before it was cut. JMHO OL JR
Hay is the highest quality it will ever be the moment it's cut. Quality starts to deteriorate from the moment it's cut to the moment it's fed. It's minimizing that deterioration that makes the difference between 'feed' hay and bad hay.
You can have the best fertilized weed free perfect stand of bermudagrass (or alfalfa or whatever) at the perfect stage of growth, optimum protien, TDN, ADF, etc. and if you fumble the ball during haymaking end up with a product inferior to well-handled prairie hay. Once the cutting has begun it's a race to get it put up properly in the best way possible. How well you manage haymaking is just as important as having an excellent stand to cut to begin with. That said, the old computer saying "garbage in garbage out" still applies, as you can't make hay that is any better than what you start with when you cut and if it's over mature, weedy, etc. that is going to limit how good it will be from the start, BUT you can take 'perfect' bermuda (or anything else) and screw it up so bad you've got cardboard in the end anyway.
I see a lot of guys (practically all) around here cut beautiful fertilized sprayed bermuda pastures and then leave it laying flat in the sun for up to a week, sometimes more, before they'll ever even rake it, let alone bale it. Most guys want to run the rake right ahead of the baler. This is wrong in our climate. Further north where the sun is not so intense and the drying conditions take longer it's better to leave it flat in the swath. But when it's in the high 90's and the sun heats you like a furnace, most hay won't take but 3 days to be ready for round baling. The book I have says that hay should be raked at 50% moisture-- that's about the equivalent of just wilted flat, but still bright green or JUST starting to turn from bright shiny green to the duller flat green. Usually this works out to cutting one day, raking the next day, and it's dried enough in the windrow to be ready for baling the third day. Put it in a windrow raked right so the stems are out and you protect most of your leaves from sunburn, which causes the carotene in the leaves to turn to Vitamin D which is worth a lot less to the cow nutritionally. Hay should be a good green color when it is properly baled. But I still see most of the guys cut bermuda and let it roast until it's as gold as wheat straw before they'll bale it. It's what I call 'cardboard hay'. Most guys will pay any price for it because 'it's fertilized bermuda' but it's been so mishandled I'd put my plain prairie hay up against it for quality. Just goes to show most guys don't really know what they're looking at or for when they buy hay.
Hay WILL continue to dry in the windrow, how much depends on local conditions. Farther north it will dry less in the windrow than it will in the swath, but here in this heat and with the burning heat of the sun, it will dry almost as quickly in the windrow as in the swath, but in the swath only the grass on top is getting the full sunburn effect; the hay inside and on bottom of the windrow is shaded and drying but will stay bright green. In the swath it will nearly ALL turn brown from sunburn before it's raked. That green color is the quickest way to spot 'good' hay. Yes, raking it into windrows a day early exposes you to the risk it'll get rained on, and yes I'd rather have it flat in the swath than in a windrow if it's going to get rained on, but the quality is far more at risk from sunburn than getting a rain or shower on it in the windrow. That's where watching the weather (not the weatherman necessarily), luck, and the Lord come into play in getting it cut and in the bale before it gets rained on. For the first time in about 2-3 years, I had some rained on this year in the windrow. It took me two more trips with the rake around the windrows with the rolabar rake, one to spread the windrow out and one to roll it back over again after it dried. Was the quality as good as if it hadn't been rained on; no of course not. But hay the neighbor cut the same day and left out there a week that was rained on CERTAINLY wasn't better!
Storage is another way that even 'perfect' hay put up under ideal conditions can turn to crap or suffer major losses. I see guys stacking round bales round side to round side like beer cans in a case and that's wrong too. Water runs down in between and rots the sides. Bales should ALWAYS be flat end to flat end and adjacent rows have at least a foot between for moisture and air movement. I put mine on pallets. Wish I had a barn but I don't. I'm thinking about double stacking and tarping too, but I'm not sure if it's worth it since I feed most of my hay out every year and only carry over 10 or 15 bales at most and feed those first the next fall.
Anyway, don't overlook how hay is handled after it's cut. That's at least as important as how it was handled before it was cut. JMHO OL JR
MrBilly
Well-known member
Maybe I missed it, but quality has to do with protein, digestability, and weeds in my opinion. Unless you do the hay analysis, your just flying by the seat of your britches and really know nothing about hay quality.
Billy
Billy
MrBilly":i8sy3055 said:
I've got to disagree with this statement. Hay analysis is a relatively new thing, and people had to learn about good vs mediocre hay the hard way before its inception. The oldtimers who have been around hay for a good number of years have learned what to look for in hay, and they can tell good quality hay from bad quality hay simply by the way it looks - over the years I've learned that they are seldom wrong in their judgement. ;-) If I live long enough, I might be able to tell good hay from mediocre hay like they can. In the meantime, I'm stuck with hay analysis.
hayray
Well-known member
msscamp":3hg136po said:
Ok, I gotta' do a trump disagree on your disagree. I have been testing my hay now for the last two years and all as I can say is "wow" what an educaiton. I stood at the hay auction yesterday next to some old timers that had been buying and selling hay their whole lives and based on some of their comments they were way off on the presumptions of hay quality. You should try testing your hay and see for yourself. I have argued with vets and made them admit that they were wrong when talking about hay qualtiy (which I don't know why a vet thinks they are an expert nutritionist anyways) based on my testing. If you are balancing rations based on protein and energy of different hays you can really save money and not over feed and have optimal weaning weights and body scores on your cattle but you can't do that really accurate unless you are testing. Modern agriculture is forcing everybody to be more efficient because there is not a lot of room on that bottom line. Plus, a lot of my competitors that sell hay now are advertising that it is lab tested. Now remember - msscamp - this is just a friendly debate.
Ray
GMN
Well-known member
Plus, a lot of my competitors that sell hay now are advertising that it is lab tested. Now remember - msscamp - this is just a friendly debate. Qoute:
Lab tested hay doesn't always mean it is correct. We bought some alfalfa from a guy dealing in alfalfa, and when it was delivered was in bad shape, he sent a hay test along saying it was rfv of about 150, I had someone else test it locally turned out to be less than 100 RFV. Tests can be faked, so beware on that.
GMN
Lab tested hay doesn't always mean it is correct. We bought some alfalfa from a guy dealing in alfalfa, and when it was delivered was in bad shape, he sent a hay test along saying it was rfv of about 150, I had someone else test it locally turned out to be less than 100 RFV. Tests can be faked, so beware on that.
GMN
hayray":9ucx1jvo said:
Yes, this is a friendly debate. ;-) I should have qualified my statement about oldtimers. The oldtimers I was referring to do have their hay tested and the tests generally confirm the initial assessment of the hay - once in a while they are proven wrong, but that is the exception rather than the rule - I neglected to mention that, however. That is my bad, and I apologize for my oversight.
hayray
Well-known member
msscamp":1c73cjfq said:hayray":1c73cjfq said:
Yes, this is a friendly debate. ;-) I should have qualified my statement about oldtimers. The oldtimers I was referring to do have their hay tested and the tests generally confirm the initial assessment of the hay - once in a while they are proven wrong, but that is the exception rather than the rule - I neglected to mention that, however. That is my bad, and I apologize for my oversight.
Now that I test I can look at hay most of the times and be pretty close guessing what the protein and TDN is, but that is only because I have tested enough hay.
MrBilly
Well-known member
It is just a tool, a good tool, that should be utilized more than it is. Like Hayray says, it helps you to be able to dole out the correct quantities of ones various qualities of hay , we all have, based on nutritional needs of the cattle.
Testing requires that one take the sample correctly, enough of them to be representative of a particular field or cut. We then mark the bales of each field and cutting so in the winter we can go back to the barn to pick and choose which quality hay we need to feed at a particular time.
Billy
Testing requires that one take the sample correctly, enough of them to be representative of a particular field or cut. We then mark the bales of each field and cutting so in the winter we can go back to the barn to pick and choose which quality hay we need to feed at a particular time.
Billy
MrBilly":1mck4bi5 said:
I spray paint the field number on the end of each bale as it's loaded into the barn or storage area. If we get a second cutting that's marked along with the field number. I don;t know why it isn't standard practice.
dun
