Your Opportunity to Chime in on Greg Judy's Methods

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I think Greg has an inspirational story, backed by solid success in his "context", and much can be learned by listening to his suggestions.

His birdhouses are NOT designed for barn swallows, but rather, tree swallows. Big difference between how the two "nest" (solitary vs. colonial, in a cavity or box vs. mud nest on a protected wall), etc. In Missouri, he's in the tree swallow's natural range... but up here in Minnesota, we're not really in their territory at all... but barn swallows are here.

He has some reasonably necessary iron/steel, without a doubt, but if you look carefully, I think you'd find that his "iron investment" is significantly lower per AU than most. I doubt he has anything that's not paying its way.

This gets back to context again. He's in Missouri... with lots of "grass" and water. His stocking density per acre, and grazing density per each graze (days break) is considerably higher than anybody could ever achieve with a "set stock" situation (and I'll include "monthly rotations" as "set stock"... i.e., where you're not moving them VERY REGULARLY... weekly at a minimum, if not daily or more).

Your first two of three "serious issues that haven't been addressed" are essentially the same.... not enough land/too many cattle per amount of land to support the cattle's nutritional needs... However, Greg HAS successfully addressed this issue... by using hotwire to rotate the cattle, with the result being the land IS able to support the number that he's running. Your suggestion that this "is ridiculous" is unwarranted IMO.... but I will grant that it also is accurate... since it has earned at least your ridicule.

To suggest that Greg, or others who emulate his practices don't have any real perimeter fencing- w/paddock gating is an unwarranted observation. Greg puts in reasonably substantial perimeter fence... 3 HT hotwires I believe, with fiberglass posts, and braced corners. He operates on several (16 now I think) different properties... each connected with gates. So he would have the opportunity to graze it as you've suggested... with "minimal/monthy" rotations, if he wanted to do it that way... but he's found that by moving them daily/twice daily, he can better and more successfully address your first two of three "serious issues"... thereby, he is able to run a higher animal density/acre and still better support their nutritional needs.

I'm NOT saying that YOU, or anyone else, would be able to achieve the same level of density per acre that he does or can. That's "context"... and every individual operator must choose what will work best for them. Greg's made that choice... and so have you.

Who in their right mind would want to go out every day or 2 times a day and move their wires and cattle? Anybody interested in fully maximizing the carrying capacity of their land.

Will it be a more difficult task, if you're operating on a much larger land scale, with a much lower animal density per acre, because of the context you might be working in? Absolutely.

Might that make you feel that it's "ridiculous" to be moving that much wire, or adding water infrastructure in order to do it? Obviously..., it makes you feel that way. And that's OK... you're entitled to your opinion, and I will respect your right to it.

I just think that you're trying to grasp what he's doing, with an understanding based in YOUR CONTEXT... rather than from his. Lots of difference between Missouri and Ferris, TX.
Well said...absolutely.
 
If it seems too good to be true, it usually is. That one seldom fails. If farming was so lucrative, he would not need the off farm income of youtube, speaking, whatever else he peddles and the high prices for his animals as breeders. Say whatever: small off colored cattle, regardless of who owned them, are worth less and in my mind, worthless, as commercial cattle.
I've always thought that too...both Green Acres- Greg Judy and "Our Wyoming Life" need those you tube funds (and people buying their outrageously expensive meats) to stay lucrative on the farm. I've always enjoyed "Farmer Tyler Ranch"..his work, projects and farm aligns with more of what I'm doing. Our Wyoming life (promotional help and expensive infrastructure)...is too rich and synthetic for me...Wrangler Star went that way too.
 
Maybe he sells to a different market, but are red cattle not discounted in Missouri? Here those things would be $10-15/cwt lower than black cattle. Seems he'd run black bulls with them.
He direct markets meat, and sells a fair amount of breeding stock to GJ wanna-be's. He's done a great job of marketing the attributes of the South Pole breed that he feels give him an advantage.
 
I can't speak to the rest of it, but using hot wires is totally reasonable, I can fence a mile for a couple hundred bucks. and I can take the fence out in an hour. I do think that moving daily is way too labor intensive, I have other things to do, but no doubt that it's effective, I aim for about a week-10 days in a paddock. If the ground has the moisture, I can pretty much say that the grass essentially doesn't grow while the cows are on it for long periods of time, they're eating the fresh bits which is bad for future growth. In too big a paddock they'll graze their favourite spots to the ground and anything that's a little less tasty gets wasted.
I have my main fields fenced out with real fences, but do subdivide them with polywire.. I have a spool on a cordless drill and wrap up 1/8th mile in a couple minutes.. posts 50 ft apart, just drive along with the quad and pull them or step them in, my fencer is on a post that's on an old brake drum, usually that grounds well enough i don't need to get fancy with ground rods.
Good wisdom here. I've spent a long time observing my cattle's independent grazing methods when the grasses are way ahead of them...they will spend a long time in one area..weeks/months pooing and shortening the grass before they move on. They almost self graze w/ knowledge by themselves. Cattle do not want to walk around and stomp down the entire pasture area or trim down everything uniformly...they seem like they are saving areas of land for later use, especially in the shaded areas they seem to wait until it's hot before they start to graze under those shaded areas. The more I observe my cattle the more it seems like they are self managing the pasture themselves. I guess you can say...I believe I have one or two dominant cattle w/ intellect that takes the herd to key places and preserves other grassy places.
 
I do think that moving daily is way too labor intensive, I have other things to do, but no doubt that it's effective, I aim for about a week-10 days in a paddock. If the ground has the moisture, I can pretty much say that the grass essentially doesn't grow while the cows are on it for long periods of time, they're eating the fresh bits which is bad for future growth. In too big a paddock they'll graze their favourite spots to the ground and anything that's a little less tasty gets wasted.
I'd be willing to bet just about anything that the cattle on GJ's are leaving behind alot more uneaten grass than your's are... and that's OK, if that's how you want to operate, so you only move on a 7-10 day schedule. However, as indicated, the "trade off" is that "they're eating the fresh bits which is bad for future growth".... and perhaps even more impactful, because of this,
1. the roots of the grass are being shortened with each of those "eating the fresh bits"
2. which reduces root exudates,
3. which reduces soil carbon capture,
4. which reduces soil organic matter,
5. which reduces biological activity,
6. which in turn reduces water infiltration
7. and water holding capacity,
8. which reduces the amount of grass that can be grown.

These are the "compounding and cascading effects" that Allen Williams talks about. Greg understands this... and he's not willing to "sacrifice" these benefits for the convenience of less labor through much longer grazing periods.

If they are given enough pasture so that you'd able to achieve as much "left behind them" as Greg does on a pasture large enough to accomplish that after 10 days, you'd absolutely end up with a high amount of selective grazing... The animals will also be spread out in their grazing alot more, so you will end up with less desirable levels of "hoof impact" and less "trampling of residues onto the soil surface" than is optimal (both are positive impacts, AT THE RIGHT LEVEL, another benefit that he is attempting to accomplish) and the "soil health benefits" will still end up being diminished.

Greg knows his trade... he's a grass farmer, and the cattle are his "precision tool" to accomplish that. He dials in that tool to maximize all of the benefits that he is after.
 
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I've always thought that too...both Green Acres- Greg Judy and "Our Wyoming Life" need those you tube funds (and people buying their outrageously expensive meats) to stay lucrative on the farm. I've always enjoyed "Farmer Tyler Ranch"..his work, projects and farm aligns with more of what I'm doing. Our Wyoming life (promotional help and expensive infrastructure)...is too rich and synthetic for me...Wrangler Star went that way too.
Sounds like they have leaned to actually make money in the cattle business to me. No different than a guy cutting hay for his neighbor or renting out the farm house on the land. If you have it... market it how ever you can to survive.
 
What do you really think about Greg Judy's methods? Just be kind and accurately discuss what you like about his new-novel methods.

D.) Greg Judy's rotational grazing method using hot wires is ridiculous! The reason people use hot wire rotation with cattle is because they haven't addressed three serious issues:
  • They don't have enough land/acreage to support the cattle's nutritional needs.
  • Or they have too many cattle on the land to support the cattle's nutritional needs.
  • They don't have any real perimeter fencing- w/paddock gating.
Plus, who in their right mind would want to go out every day or 2 times a day and move their wires and cattle- centered on water; either building new infrastructure supplying water or moving water?

All the big successful cattle producers I know Do Not use rotational hot wires….they provide adequate land for each cow/calf pair and build real fences w/ gates and rotate cattle minimally/monthly into those permanently fenced perimeter areas.

I have taken a few things from Greg and even more from other rotational grazing guys. He does know his stuff, although I dont find him to be a good teacher as he carries on about trivial things like manure pats and admiring some "chunk" of a cow. There are studies that support rotational grazing's increase in carrying capacity and I have personally seen it.

BTW, I really dont like when people start following schools of thought led my dynamic and entertaining personalities. It helps the cult leader and hurts the rest of us trying to make our way in the world. "Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people."

I used to wonder about preachers; if they made their money playing the part, how do I know they are genuine? And now, in this age of social media, the disease has spread and it really is difficult to determine between projection and reality. We have vegan youtubers caught eating meat, conservative pundits caught with homosexual porn in a video they put out of all places. Regenerative ag is no different, playing the part of successful farmer but really making money based on books, cattle schools, youtube. Few have really made it on there own and THEN capitalized on that success. Joel Salatin, for example made it, but now is constantly pumping out books and doing conferences; but the farm continues to be profitable.

The "big guys" around here (VA) run cattle as a side business besides crops, chickens and turkeys. That is what really pays this bills. I also see few who really want to be out there 365 days a year, and they need to put something on the land to get that tax write off. There is a farm in Middletown VA which uses permanent fences and novel endophyte fescue (https://www.cbf.org/blogs/save-the-...rs-calls-for-solid-cost-sharing-programs.html). I have toured the place and he grows top quality forage and gets impressive gains with his calves. I also respect him because he knows his stuff and doesn't attempt to capitalize on that and build a cult following.
 
I have been to two of Greg's schools and his methods are the best plan for anyone in the cow-calf business starting out. I like him a lot and found him to have a generous nature and is really working because he likes helping people.

Almost everybody should start here to learn or re-learn efficient cattle production. If you execute his plan, you can probably do OK selling at the sale barn every year which is very tough using any other model commonly employed in the US.

Greg has tried a lot of things that come along to see how they effect his production. He is very straight-forward in determinations of usefulness and usually has tried it long enough to know what he is talking about. I asked a few times about why things didn't work and he mostly said he didnt know but it didn't matter because it wasn't effective for him - so he moved on. I admire this in him because I get hung up on deep understanding of why things work or don't but he can sort through good and bad options quickly this way.

Production is the easy part of farming/ranching. The Achilles heel of every cattle operation appears to be marketing and that isn't really addressed in his teachings. He has every contact in the country and a daily platform that more than doubles the value of animals selling simply due to more eyeballs makes more bidders. To get any real premiums for the average producer, the producer will have to find a marketing program that fits this production. The diverse enterprises at Green Pastures only work because he has a buyer for almost anything he raises. Few farmers want to be called a marketer but it is required if you want to make any real money.

One place that Greg and I diverge is on seedstock sales. I think that 90% of cattle producers aren't ready to be in seedstock and virtually none of people new to cattle should be thinking about it. Seedstock relies heavily on reputation, consistency, discipline, records and data which is pretty tough from Greg's animals because they have no records other than their ear tag and how they look. As soon as a bull leaves Greg's they are commercial bulls only tied to their origins by a bill of sale. This isn't a big deal really, just something to understand because it isn't as easy as it looks from the outside.
 
I've always thought that too...both Green Acres- Greg Judy and "Our Wyoming Life" need those you tube funds (and people buying their outrageously expensive meats) to stay lucrative on the farm. I've always enjoyed "Farmer Tyler Ranch"..his work, projects and farm aligns with more of what I'm doing. Our Wyoming life (promotional help and expensive infrastructure)...is too rich and synthetic for me...Wrangler Star went that way too.
My family also homesteads, have a big garden, fruit trees, chickens, hogs. We have checked out a few youtube channels mostly for entertainment and because so few people seem to be interested. We followed Justin Rhodes for a while. I actually met him at a homestead conference and was disappointed and stopped following. I checked in with him last week and he has gone crazy, buying equipment and planning new homes. I think its natural to grow crazy when you are immersed in watching your own videos which project an image. Eventually you believe your own lies.
 
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I think everyone has some good advice but to blindly follow someone without critically thinking about what they said or advise, is cult-tish. His idea of hot wires is good and leasing is good but moving cows every day? barf.

I think it is incredibly inefficient to move cattle AND hot wires every day, and even much less so twice a day. I tried that for about a week because I'm a little slow or stubborn. There are much better things I can and should do with my time.

I've talked to many different ranches, NCRS, and extension agents about this in Texas. Following the Noble Research Farms on their "regenerative" ranching journey has been very insightful. They are presenting a lot of different things they are trying, options depending upon the terrain and ranch characteristics. Noble Research and the rest have all said the same thing - moving once a week between 8+ paddocks is a much more efficient use of time and accomplishes the same goal. And my hot wires - I do not take down and move. They pretty much stay put until I need to do work across multiple paddocks. My perimeter fences are 5 strand barb wire.

This is working well for me and even during last summer - fall's drought I did not have to cull or feed hay until November. My grass was a little shorter than I like in November but it is recovering well now.

My next goal is to move away from feeding hay.
 
I'd be willing to bet just about anything that the cattle on GJ's are leaving behind alot more uneaten grass than your's are... and that's OK, if that's how you want to operate, so you only move on a 7-10 day schedule. However, as indicated, the "trade off" is that "they're eating the fresh bits which is bad for future growth".... and perhaps even more impactful, because of this,
1. the roots of the grass are being shortened with each of those "eating the fresh bits"
2. which reduces root exudates,
3. which reduces soil carbon capture,
4. which reduces soil organic matter,
5. which reduces biological activity,
6. which in turn reduces water infiltration
7. and water holding capacity,
8. which reduces the amount of grass that can be grown.

These are the "compounding and cascading effects" that Allen Williams talks about. Greg understands this... and he's not willing to "sacrifice" these benefits for the convenience of less labor through much longer grazing periods.

If they are given enough pasture so that you'd able to achieve as much "left behind them" as Greg does on a pasture large enough to accomplish that after 10 days, you'd absolutely end up with a high amount of selective grazing... The animals will also be spread out in their grazing alot more, so you will end up with less desirable levels of "hoof impact" and less "trampling of residues onto the soil surface" than is optimal (both are positive impacts, AT THE RIGHT LEVEL, another benefit that he is attempting to accomplish) and the "soil health benefits" will still end up being diminished.

Greg knows his trade... he's a grass farmer, and the cattle are his "precision tool" to accomplish that. He dials in that tool to maximize all of the benefits that he is after.
It's all a tradeoff between labor and maximizing the benefit of the cows, and these days labor is kinda expensive. I have my hands full a lot of the time with irrigation and haying and whatever other projects I have, I'm not going to say that moving them daily is bad, it's just I don't have that kind of time to dedicate to it.

Good wisdom here. I've spent a long time observing my cattle's independent grazing methods when the grasses are way ahead of them...they will spend a long time in one area..weeks/months pooing and shortening the grass before they move on. They almost self graze w/ knowledge by themselves. Cattle do not want to walk around and stomp down the entire pasture area or trim down everything uniformly...they seem like they are saving areas of land for later use, especially in the shaded areas they seem to wait until it's hot before they start to graze under those shaded areas. The more I observe my cattle the more it seems like they are self managing the pasture themselves. I guess you can say...I believe I have one or two dominant cattle w/ intellect that takes the herd to key places and preserves other grassy places.
I don't believe that for a minute.. cows will starve themselves grazing 1" tall fresh shoots rather than going to the tall stuff that isn't as nice, and the longer they wait the worse it gets. you're both losing grass growth and calf growth at that point, depending on the soil type they're compacting the ground, killing roots, etc..
 
I've done the daily/ ever other day moves grazing with a hot wire and with our grass it definitely increase forage utilization and also allows be to graze more AU on the land.

Why I quit doing it is a time thing. 2 kids, hay to make, AirBnB house to manage, equipment to fix, lawns to mow, and the list goes on. Being out there setting up hot wires and moving water and mineral feeders gets to be labor intensive and there just isn't enough hours in the days.

Greg Judy has a team of interns to help him take care of those things. I haven't found anyone to be an unpaid intern yet....
 
Greg may do two moves per day but I try to keep them under three days. Day job, kids, old house, other farm jobs, its hard to keep up. It does pay off with more uniform grazing and I find that essential because in the summer the cattle will hit OG over fescue and just wears it out.

Regardless we all need to optimize to our climate and personal and financial needs.
 
I find him to be a wealth of knowledge and experience. At the the same time I realize that not everything he does will work for me and that's ok. It's still interesting to see how he has accomplished his goals. I do believe that he is a master of marketing and knows that if you keep preaching it more people will see it and believe it.
 
Mr. Judy's ideas likely work fine where he's at. I have my own ways that seem to be working just fine thank you very much. That said, I do like his philosophy that buying land isn't nearly as important as controlling land. You can buy it later when you're in the right place financially.
 
D.) Greg Judy's rotational grazing method using hot wires is ridiculous! The reason people use hot wire rotation with cattle is because they haven't addressed three serious issues:
  • They don't have enough land/acreage to support the cattle's nutritional needs.
  • Or they have too many cattle on the land to support the cattle's nutritional needs.
  • They don't have any real perimeter fencing- w/paddock gating.
Plus, who in their right mind would want to go out every day or 2 times a day and move their wires and cattle- centered on water; either building new infrastructure supplying water or moving water?

All the big successful cattle producers I know Do Not use rotational hot wires….they provide adequate land for each cow/calf pair and build real fences w/ gates and rotate cattle minimally/monthly into those permanently fenced perimeter areas.
This is the stubborn mindset that will keep you from making progress.

All 3 points are BS, honestly.
  • Nobody has "enough" land - more cows per acre in a profitable operation is called "more profit"
  • Some people have too many cows but generally because they don't move their cows regularly.
  • You clearly haven't watched many of Greg's videos and have definitely missed the entire point of having a portable single wire - The first thing he talks about is building a solid perimeter fence before bringing any animals on the place. After that, get rid of excessive interior fences and use the polywire to move the cows to the best forage without a set shape or rotation.
Once you embrace moving every day or two, it will be obvious how much more you are getting out of your pastures along with faster improvement of poor ground. Moving twice per day is beyond what our labor can accomplish while working full time jobs but it's on the list of goals because it works. There are other benefits that come with it but let's deal with the backlash of this post first...
 
Never met Greg Judy, though he has spoken in North Dakota several times, including this past summer. He says, if he ranched up here he'd be bale grazing a lot. Have met Gabe Brown, and learned a lot f h. From his book, Dirt to Soil. And also saw my favorite of this ilk, Alberta bale grazer Steve Kenyon. Judy isn't all that helpful to me because we don't have the type of grasses that stockpile well here in the Morth Plains. Butt the idea of seeing each blade of grass as a tiny solar collector is sound. Intense grazing management is the key to keeping the plant vegetative and able to produce more lbs. of beef per acre. Gotta go — have return a phone call to Kit Pharo.
 
Never met Greg Judy, though he has spoken in North Dakota several times, including this past summer. He says, if he ranched up here, he'd be bale grazing a lot. Have met Gabe Brown, and learned a lot from his book, Dirt to Soil. And also saw my favorite of this ilk, Alberta bale grazer Steve Kenyon. Judy isn't all that helpful to me because we don't have the type of grasses that stockpile well here in the Northern Plains. Butt the idea of seeing each blade of grass as a tiny solar collector is sound. Intense grazing management is the key to keeping the plant vegetative and able to produce more lbs. of beef per acre. Gotta go — have to return a phone call to Kit Pharo.
Please excuse the typos — big old pop-up on my iPod. Had a nice visit with Kit Pharo after leaving y'all last night. Bidding on my 2nd PCC bull at his Colorado sale. Yup, I'm a "herd quitter."
 
I am intrigued by Greg Judy's discussion of cow size and how it may relate to lbs. of weaned calf per acre vs. lbs. weaned per cow. Kit Pharo has the same idea — most of the time a pot load of 500 lb calves should bring more $ than a pot load of heavier calves, especially if the smaller ones have a third more head count. My best value seems to be in the number of live calves weaned, not weaning weight. Local feeder here says it is taking a lot longer to finish those big framed steers. That's costly. And bigger cows just don't seem to last long for me. Not thinking I'd want GJ's 1,000 lb cows though. But then again, I have not tried it.
 

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