Yet another Lutalyse question

[cranky]

Hi everyone I hope this question is not too basic for you all BUT...

I have 20 cows and 2 bulls, one bull is a 3 year old red angus that sires some pretty small calves(avg 60-70 Lbs) that i use on heifers and the other is a black angus that i breed to my other cows, the bulls run with the cows most of the year altho i do seperate them after the cows start calving the first part of june till about now

my vet told me about lutalyse and told me to give 5cc then 10 to 12 days later to give another and turn them in with my bulls

Last year i gave shots to four heifers and four cows and put them in seperate pastures with thier respective bulls then the following week repeated process till i was done with them all, started the same thing this year and noticed the cows going into heat very actively after the first shot so my question is, why the second shot?

2nd question, is giving 8 to 16 cows a shot and then expecting the bull to do his thing on them all within a week expecting to much from the poor guy?

any, suggestions as to a breeding program using bulls would be very much appreciated

By the way i perfer calving end of april to end of may (so when would be appopiate time to give shots and turn in with bull?) while cows are on pasture as i work 250 miles from home and am gone for 3 days a week and cant keep a close eye on them and my pasture is nice and dry and comfy for them, I am thinking about starting a ai program as we did this when we milked cows but then we saw each and every cow each and every day rain shine, snow, cold, blizzard, or tornado even fishing season (you get the point to much time with cattle)

thanks in advance

Dave

 

[vs_cattle]

giving 8 to 16 cows a shot and then expecting the bull to do his thing on them all within a week expecting to much from the poor guy

For the average 3 yr old he could handle it I dont see why not
Good Luck with the breeding ;-)

 

[CPL]

I would say forget the lute.

Leave the bull in for 45 days and if you're wanting to calve at the end of April to the end of May, put the bull in about mid June through late August. My experience with lute is that it lowers conception rates than natural heat. Others have done fine, but I wouldn't try to have the bull breed 16 cows in unnatural heat and expect them all to settle.

 

[KNERSIE]

I would say forget the lute.

Leave the bull in for 45 days and if you're wanting to calve at the end of April to the end of May, put the bull in about mid June through late August. My experience with lute is that it lowers conception rates than natural heat. Others have done fine, but I wouldn't try to have the bull breed 16 cows in unnatural heat and expect them all to settle.

I agree, forget the lute, the vet is just making money.

I use estrumate and not lutalyse, can't say my conception rates is significantly lower than natural heats, but that is AI.

I really question the two shot protocol when using a bull. In theory with two shots of PGF2 all the cows should be on heat within about 48 hours of each other. How many cows could you realistically expect the bull to breed in that period? It seems that this would be counterproductive to a short calving season.

If you need more thorough explanation how lutalyse works or the most used protocols, pm me.

 

[sizmic]

lute is hard on the muscle too, isn't it?
sizmic

 

[KNERSIE]

lute is hard on the muscle too, isn't it?
sizmic

I have no idea, I have never seen any reaction to the shot at the site of injection.

PGF2 does cause the smooth muscles to contract, like those found in the uterus, hence the usefullness when a placenta is retained. My wording might not be spot on, but the general idea is correct.

 

[milkmaid]

Lute causes regression of the CL and works on the smooth muscles. The uterus falls into that catagory, as do the lungs.

 

[KNERSIE]

Lute causes regression of the CL and works on the smooth muscles. The uterus falls into that catagory, as do the lungs.

thank goodness you're back!

where were you when we needed you? ;-)

 

[TexasBred]

Sounds self defeating to me. Not only does lutalyse help with cycling, but if she bred, the 2nd shot would cause her to abort.

 

[milkmaid]

Lute causes regression of the CL and works on the smooth muscles. The uterus falls into that catagory, as do the lungs.

thank goodness you're back!

where were you when we needed you? ;-)

:lol: Prolly taking campers on a trail ride.

 

[smallrancher]

Cranky, sounds to me like you have working facilities. Your'e already spending money on lut, why not go with a synchronization program and be able to choose from hundreds of the TOP bulls without having to feed them.
Here we go ;-)

 

[Stocker Steve]

I hauled a load of heifers to a sale a month ago. Four of them were two months along so they got a shot of lute and a ride back home.
I hauled another two loads of heifers (including the four above) in this week and two were PG. They were two of the four that had a shot of lute one month ago and so it obviously did not work.
I asked the vet what was up. He said they should have aborted... but if they don't you should give them a second shot after two weeks. Kind of a challege on pasture.
I kept them in a dry lot this time. One aborted the second day. Just a little blood showing on the other one.

What kind of success rate do you see with lute in the first trimester?

 

[George Monk]

Keep the bull out of the pen until the second shot is given. This helps all the cows synch. Some will not cycle because of the stage of estrous. the second shot 10-12 days is there to catch those that did not come into heat on the first shot.

as far as aborting. Lut is not effective until the embyo implants itself..I think that is about day 8????? shot given before then would not be effective.

It is also recommended NOT to give after the 100th day of pregancy. Lots of problems can arise better let her calf according to my vet.

 

[dun]

Keep the bull out of the pen until the second shot is given. This helps all the cows synch. Some will not cycle because of the stage of estrous. the second shot 10-12 days is there to catch those that did not come into heat on the first shot.

as far as aborting. Lut is not effective until the embyo implants itself..I think that is about day 8????? shot given before then would not be effective.

It is also recommended NOT to give after the 100th day of pregancy. Lots of problems can arise better let her calf according to my vet.

I don;t think implantation doesn;t take place that quickly, the wait time from heat to shot is so that there is a functioning corpus luteum. Lut causes the CL to go away and that's what causes the aborting process. With the CL not present the ovarys etc behave just as if she was open.

 

[dun]

Just went back and checked my reproduction manual. Unless things have changed in the past 30 years here is the process of implantation:
"For about 30 days, the developing embryo floats freely around the interior of the uterus. During this time, it must absorb its food largely from the fluids within the iterus. Even a low grade infection in the uterus at this time can spell death to the embryo.
While the embryo is floating freelly iun the uterus, membranes grow around it. When the embryo is about 49 days old, the membranes from the embrhyo unite with the caruncles, or buttons, on the inside surface of the uterus. This forms the placenta and ends the free floating stage."

 

[Stocker Steve]

Short bred light heifers go pretty cheap at the sales barn. I thought they were a deal until I found out how well lute really works.


What kind of complications can happen with lute after 100 days?

 

[milkmaid]

It is also recommended NOT to give after the 100th day of pregancy. Lots of problems can arise better let her calf according to my vet.

Short bred light heifers go pretty cheap at the sales barn. I thought they were a deal until I found out how well lute really works.

What kind of complications can happen with lute after 100 days?

Even after ~80 days, you're risking damage to the cervix, adhesions and scarring in the uterus... the fetus is just too big, and Lute causes smooth muscle contractions (uterus), so you're trying to force a baseball sized calf through an undialated cervix; just not a good idea.

If you don't care if the heifer/cow ever breeds back again, it's not an issue then.

 

[milkmaid]

Just went back and checked my reproduction manual. Unless things have changed in the past 30 years here is the process of implantation:
"For about 30 days, the developing embryo floats freely around the interior of the uterus. During this time, it must absorb its food largely from the fluids within the iterus. Even a low grade infection in the uterus at this time can spell death to the embryo.
While the embryo is floating freelly iun the uterus, membranes grow around it. When the embryo is about 49 days old, the membranes from the embrhyo unite with the caruncles, or buttons, on the inside surface of the uterus. This forms the placenta and ends the free floating stage."

I'd always kind of thought that embryo arrived in the uterus around day 6 and implanted ~10 days, which is why you have such a narrow window for flushing cows. :???:

 

[dun]

Just went back and checked my reproduction manual. Unless things have changed in the past 30 years here is the process of implantation:
"For about 30 days, the developing embryo floats freely around the interior of the uterus. During this time, it must absorb its food largely from the fluids within the iterus. Even a low grade infection in the uterus at this time can spell death to the embryo.
While the embryo is floating freelly iun the uterus, membranes grow around it. When the embryo is about 49 days old, the membranes from the embrhyo unite with the caruncles, or buttons, on the inside surface of the uterus. This forms the placenta and ends the free floating stage."

I'd always kind of thought that embryo arrived in the uterus around day 6 and implanted ~10 days, which is why you have such a narrow window for flushing cows. :???:

They do arrive about day 6. I think the time frame for a flush has more to do with the viability of the embryo after it gets serious about the forming of the membranes that surround it. It wouldn;t be just an embryo anymore it would be an embryo plus other stuff. But that's just a guess. If I remeber, the next time I talk to the vet I'll ask him. With all the mbryo and repro work he did at MARC she should have some idea as to the reason for the timing.

 

[Double R Ranch]

I ask this as a true question. Why are you luting on cattle that are out with a bull? I question this as a waist of money? If you have bulls figure out your breeding time and turn them out. If they are open at preg check that is a cull cow. It seems like a lot of extra work and money that is not necissary.
I am really truly questioning this and would love to hear what the reason is that you and your vet have come up with this program. Why not a sync protocal that is a bit more consistant? We are currently in a trial run of a new protocal and it seems to work well. I also agree with waiting til the second shot if you are to do this program before turning out with the bulls.
Look forward to hearing back from you.
Double R