WW3 Could we win?

[greybeard]

I know lots of Iraq and Afghan veterans and talk to even more on line. Nothing shabby, lazy, undedicated or unprofessional about them.
That blood runs just as red on the Mideast sand as it did at Omaha Beach and Iwo.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I know lots of Iraq and Afghan veterans and talk to even more on line. Nothing shabby, lazy, undedicated or unprofessional about them.
That blood runs just as red on the Mideast sand as it did at Omaha Beach and Iwo.

You can't tell me squat about that
youngest son was Air Force Combat Control ( special forces) from 2001-2006. Those today are rare he can also put DV plates on his vehicles.
Oldest brother idiot joined the Army died of cancer from Agent Orange.
He couldn't opt for Navy or Air Force.
Just had to get in the bullet sponge line.
I still have no clue why my draft status changed from 1A to 1H when he went in country.
BIL was career Navy fast attack nuclear sub.
Dad was Navy WWII and Korea
I am no expert but have an inkling by the four folded flags.

 

[TexasBred]

I know lots of Iraq and Afghan veterans and talk to even more on line. Nothing shabby, lazy, undedicated or unprofessional about them.
That blood runs just as red on the Mideast sand as it did at Omaha Beach and Iwo.

You can't tell me squat about that
youngest son was Air Force Combat Control ( special forces) from 2001-2006. Those today are rare he can also put DV plates on his vehicles.
Oldest brother idiot joined the Army died of cancer from Agent Orange.
He couldn't opt for Navy or Air Force.
Just had to get in the bullet sponge line.
I still have no clue why my draft status changed from 1A to 1H when he went in country.
BIL was career Navy fast attack nuclear sub.
Dad was Navy WWII and Korea
I am no expert but have an inkling by the four folded flags.

We're discussing who will and who won't serve. Why didn't you volunteer?? 1H shouldn't have stopped that.

 

[Rafter S]

GB your and my dads generation never knew nothing but hard times.
The demographics has shifted from 70% rural to 30%.
Many of today's population since 1970 have never really faced the hard times with the food stamp and welfare programs. Today even welfare recipients are provided a free iPhone.
When I was growing up like you if we didn't raise it or kill it we didn't eat very well. We have shifted from a self sufficient society to an entitled one.
I might be totally wrong I just don't see the entitled ones stepping up to the line.
We had 7.5 million serve in Vietnam and lost.

I was pretty young then, but I don't think we can blame the soldiers for that loss.

 

[Craig Miller]

I like to think that the best soldiers ever are being put out right now. A kid drafted in now days though...I don't know if half of them would amount to anything. I think they would do better than cb suggest though. Some of the entitled ones your talking about have grown up dodging bullets right here in the us. Some have been shooting back since they were 12. You may call them thugs now but they could prove valuable in war.

 

[Hunter]

What was the surge of volunteers after 9/11?
Today's military and wars/battles are done completely different than WWII or Vietnam.
Not saying things won't change if an actual WWIII type scenario plays out.

 

[Bestoutwest]

When I look at the "average" guy today hold any tool and look at it with a puzzled look on his face wondering how it works, I can't imagine they would be trainable to be a sharp shooter, or actually ever accomplish anything with their hands... Ever watch one of these guys try and close a wire gate?? or climb over a fence??? It's laughable!
Underestimating your enemy is step one to losing to them.. I wouldn't underestimate what Russia and China have available as technology... I'm sure leaked secrets are dealt with a little differently over there.
All you gotta do to get an idea of their technology is look at how many people they have graduating in the sciences.. They seem to be natural geniuses at math, while over here people can't even guesstimate what a multiplication or division ought to work out to.. The sheer number of brains they have working for them is staggering (Russia perhaps less so), and they can develop new things much faster.. If you want something made there, you have a lineup of places that want to do it, and will deliver it tomorrow if you want... and CHEAP... so nevermind that the economies may not be that great, the "affordability" of a war also depends a lot on what you pay out.. and US defense contractors are anything but cheap

I never underestimate the power of anyone, you never know what they are capable of. For instance, my father is not mechanically inclined at all. But the guy has been doing martial arts for over 45 years. Yes, against a gun it's not a fair fight, but at 65, fake hip and all, he's a pretty formidable opponent. Just because someone can't do mechanical work doesn't mean they can't kill efficiently. In fact, I think this next generation is going to do great with warfare b/c it will be fought with robotic machines. Look at the damage we're doing with drones.

What I'm really afraid of is China and Russia teaming up. The list of our enemies is growing by the day, and it isn't looking pretty. Russia, China, Iran, North Korea. If they can sway India or Pakistan, and then there's the forgotten continent of Africa which has millions of men who know how to kill.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Enemies? I don't believe we have but one true enemy and that's the muslim extremists "terrorist" It's sad that people are getting slaughtered throughout the world, but that isn't our problem. We have more than enough problems that need fixing right here in the US of A.

 

[ropinranger]

For those that don't know, I currently train some of the Army's recruits. I still work with current military members from all four services, and some from other areas. Rest assured, our spec forces(Rangers, Delta, SeALS, special forces, etc.), intelligence, air assets, and to some extent our ground forces are still the most motivated, best trained, and technically proficient in the world.

That is why I said we would win, but once we were engaged past three or so years it would become more challenging...we need new tanks, and ground weapons--and more of them.

The only reason why I said China presents a real challenge is because of their population numbers...and the fact that they bought a large part of Russia's air and ground assets when Russia had to sell them off a few years ago. That, and their well established manufacturing and industrial production, will surely test our mettle.

I have no doubt that 20%-30% of our young Americans would be able to handle it, even some of the city-folk...lol :2cents:

 

[MRRherefords]

I know someone who is teaching his son Chinese, because he is convinced that China will take us over someday. His opinion, not mine.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I know lots of Iraq and Afghan veterans and talk to even more on line. Nothing shabby, lazy, undedicated or unprofessional about them.
That blood runs just as red on the Mideast sand as it did at Omaha Beach and Iwo.

You can't tell me squat about that
youngest son was Air Force Combat Control ( special forces) from 2001-2006. Those today are rare he can also put DV plates on his vehicles.
Oldest brother idiot joined the Army died of cancer from Agent Orange.
He couldn't opt for Navy or Air Force.
Just had to get in the bullet sponge line.
I still have no clue why my draft status changed from 1A to 1H when he went in country.
BIL was career Navy fast attack nuclear sub.
Dad was Navy WWII and Korea
I am no expert but have an inkling by the four folded flags.

We're discussing who will and who won't serve. Why didn't you volunteer?? 1H shouldn't have stopped that.

To be honest I did not believe in LBJ's police action BS. All I saw was Korea part 2.
We weren't in it to win it.
If I had been drafted I would have done my duty and not ran for Canada.
We have not won since WWII Korea was a draw Vietnam a loss for nothing,
the current one is still to be determined .

 

[greybeard]

I agree with you wholeheartedly RopinRanger.
There's always a supposition and opinion that the armed force that fights the next war won't be as good as the last or a previous one, most often expressed by those who didn't fight in the last one or a previous one, but that's also almost always a false and completely unsubstantiated opinion of bias.

People who tout the attributes of the allied military of WW2 often ignore the fact, that of the 16.1 million US men and women that served from 1939 thru 1945, only 6.3 million 38.8% walked up and raised their right hand. The other 61.2%/11.5 million were draftees. IOW nearly twice the number of volunteers in that force had no legal choice in the matter. My father was among that group of 11.5 million draftee group. That in no way is intended to diminish the accomplishments of that generation.

When push comes to shove, whether by volunteer or re-implementation of the draft, the current or next generation will step up to the plate and do their job.
Will there be a significant # of conscientious objectors and lots of butteyes? Sure, there have been since the Revolutionary War, and that won't likely change..ever.

I do agree that we need to continually upgrade weapons systems, transportation and other military hardware and infrastructure.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

TT were you even eligible during the last draft before it ended in 1973?
Not being disrespectful we are now two generations removed from the last draft.

I turned 18 in 1979 so no, I wasn't eligible during the draft years. Dang the bad luck.

 

[TexasBred]

GB your and my dads generation never knew nothing but hard times.
The demographics has shifted from 70% rural to 30%.
Many of today's population since 1970 have never really faced the hard times with the food stamp and welfare programs. Today even welfare recipients are provided a free iPhone.
When I was growing up like you if we didn't raise it or kill it we didn't eat very well. We have shifted from a self sufficient society to an entitled one.
I might be totally wrong I just don't see the entitled ones stepping up to the line.
We had 7.5 million serve in Vietnam and lost.

I was pretty young then, but I don't think we can blame the soldiers for that loss.

Our soldiers kicked their a$$ all over the country, our leadership would just never let them put the final touches on the victory !!!! I believe we could put together a very large volunteer army if needed and if we needed it put the draft back in force. Future wars won't be won with massive manpower though.

 

[TexasBred]

You can't tell me squat about that
youngest son was Air Force Combat Control ( special forces) from 2001-2006. Those today are rare he can also put DV plates on his vehicles.
Oldest brother idiot joined the Army died of cancer from Agent Orange.
He couldn't opt for Navy or Air Force.
Just had to get in the bullet sponge line.
I still have no clue why my draft status changed from 1A to 1H when he went in country.
BIL was career Navy fast attack nuclear sub.
Dad was Navy WWII and Korea
I am no expert but have an inkling by the four folded flags.

We're discussing who will and who won't serve. Why didn't you volunteer?? 1H shouldn't have stopped that.

To be honest I did not believe in LBJ's police action BS. All I saw was Korea part 2.
We weren't in it to win it.
If I had been drafted I would have done my duty and not ran for Canada.
We have not won since WWII Korea was a draw Vietnam a loss for nothing,
the current one is still to be determined .

Dam CB you were hardly out of diapers during Korean war. So you gladly took your unexplained exemption and sat on the sidelines coaching. Looks like the line of patriots and heroes stopped right there !!!!!

 

[Caustic Burno]

There were no reason for one American to have died in Korea or Vietnam TB.
One thing to defend your country another to stick our nose where it doesn't belong.
If the Japan hadn't bombed Pearl we wouldn't have got in WWII.
Americans had it right up till then not to stick our nose where it didn't belong.
TB your just a milk and honey sopper I
have no problem in a righteous fight.
A member of my family has fought in every war from the Revolutionary to this one for your freedoms.
I really don't think all of them were real bright either especially an idiot brother. We had no business in Vietnam or Korea. We actually came out better loosing in Vietnam.
Korea was a draw and have been dealing with the idiots for the past 70 years.

 

[greybeard]

I still have no clue why my draft status changed from 1A to 1H when he went in country.

Just a coincidence as far as the timing goes. 1H designation came into effect in 1971 as a result of a SCOTUS ruling and the "H" was for "hold". '71 was also the year that they did away with the college deferment and they reclassified a lot of people in '71 while selective service dept went thru the tons of requests for deferrments.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1971 ... ished#text

If you disagreed with your classification, there were some forms to fill out for the appeals process.

 

[Nesikep]

I agree with you wholeheartedly RopinRanger.
There's always a supposition and opinion that the armed force that fights the next war won't be as good as the last or a previous one, most often expressed by those who didn't fight in the last one or a previous one, but that's also almost always a false and completely unsubstantiated opinion of bias.

People who tout the attributes of the allied military of WW2 often ignore the fact, that of the 16.1 million US men and women that served from 1939 thru 1945, only 6.3 million 38.8% walked up and raised their right hand. The other 61.2%/11.5 million were draftees. IOW nearly twice the number of volunteers in that force had no legal choice in the matter. My father was among that group of 11.5 million draftee group. That in no way is intended to diminish the accomplishments of that generation.

When push comes to shove, whether by volunteer or re-implementation of the draft, the current or next generation will step up to the plate and do their job.
Will there be a significant # of conscientious objectors and lots of butteyes? Sure, there have been since the Revolutionary War, and that won't likely change..ever.

I do agree that we need to continually upgrade weapons systems, transportation and other military hardware and infrastructure.

I really don't question the willingness of the younger people, just the capabilities... Up until the 70's, a lot of men worked with their hands, so they knew how to use them.. today.. well.. they're more suited to Xbox controllers.. heaven forbid they get callouses or a blister.
I'm sure that given enough time, you could train them.. but if you're in a rush and you need them in 6 months, they're going to be rather useless

 

[greybeard]

What's the average age of a US combat soldier in modern times? In Vietnam, it was 19-20.
What real hands on work has any combat soldier in modern times ever done prior to enlistment and how long did he do it?
Not much and not for long.
Boot camp and the weeks of training afterward will whip the softness out of them and the older NCOs already in uniform will lead them into combat. Drop out rate in bootcamp is around 10-13%, depending on the branch of service. The rest will be ready, always have been.

Avg age of the combat soldier in Iraq and Afghanistan is a few years older
Yesterday was June 1, my birthday. It's now June 2.
46 years ago today, I left Vietnam after 13 months of combat duty. I turned 21 waiting at Danang airbase for my flight back to Okinawa and then on to Calif.

 

[boondocks]

I really don't question the willingness of the younger people, just the capabilities... Up until the 70's, a lot of men worked with their hands, so they knew how to use them.. today.. well.. they're more suited to Xbox controllers.. heaven forbid they get callouses or a blister.
I'm sure that given enough time, you could train them.. but if you're in a rush and you need them in 6 months, they're going to be rather useless

Lot of those kids have good eye/hand coordination from years of video games. Read an article a few years back about how some of the current pilots and drone operators have gotten a leg up because of video games.

In terms of technology, to me the real danger is that we're becoming (make that have become) a nation that is anti-science. Clearly we have Russian and Chinese infiltration at all levels of our IT infrastructure (civilian and gov't). I am firmly convinced they need not fire a shot to take us down. Just mess with our democratic processes, electrical grid, banking systems, water supply etc. And turn us all against each other.