Would you use a bull like this?

[showing71]

We're searching for a great herd bull to use on our Red Angus cows. Something that has some style and eye appeal, with functional numbers and a good pedigree behind him (I know, so is everyone else). The goal is to have a herd bull that will hopefully better the herd, so his calves will be par with the AI calves we've been getting the past few years. I was looking through a catalog and found a few I liked. Some of the ones that caught my eye are out of Ter Ron Fully Loaded.

Fully Loaded has a high BW EPD of 5.6. Here's the link to him http://search.redangus.org/animal/id/13 ... al/1234514. The sons I'm looking at have BW of 3.2 to 3.8. The breed average according to the association website is a -0.3. To top it off, I've heard from some semen distributors that Fully Loaded is a 'cow killer'. I'm not concerned with our cows having a problem calving, but since we retain heifers and bulls to sell, BW EPDs are a concern for our buyers. Our highest BW cow is a 1.8, with the average being below a 1.

My question to you all is would you use a son of Fully Loaded on your cows in my situation? Is the power in his background a concern? Or with our lower BW cows do you think we'd be ok? Thanks for the input.

 

[dun]

I wouldn;t use him on a bet unless I had some huge continental cows and wanted to use him as termianl. Horrible calving ease, ditto milk, ditto maternal calving ease. His carcass numbers aren;t all that good and his total maternal is in the crapper. No matter what cow you bred him to you are looking at hard calving poor milking daughters. Takes more then one generation to get his negative affects out of his offspring

 

[KNERSIE]

You'll more than likely be OK, but will your bull customers' heifer be able to handle a little extra BW if the roll of the dice falls that way?

I loaded all but one of the bullcalves out of an AI bull last week to the sale barn because of that very same reason.

 

[KNERSIE]

I wouldn;t use him on a bet unless I had some huge continental cows and wanted to use him as termianl. Horrible calving ease, ditto milk, ditto maternal calving ease. His carcass numbers aren;t all that good and his total maternal is in the crapper. No matter what cow you bred him to you are looking at hard calving poor milking daughters. Takes more then one generation to get his negative affects out of his offspring

Then I don't see him as the sire to built from at all.

 

[dun]

I wouldn;t use him on a bet unless I had some huge continental cows and wanted to use him as termianl. Horrible calving ease, ditto milk, ditto maternal calving ease. His carcass numbers aren;t all that good and his total maternal is in the crapper. No matter what cow you bred him to you are looking at hard calving poor milking daughters. Takes more then one generation to get his negative affects out of his offspring

Then I don't see him as the sire to built from at all.

Strictly terminal!

 

[pdfangus]

I recently downloaded the red angus survey and have been playing with it to assist my neighbor in bull selection.

the bull you specified ranks 1256 out of 1456 bulls in the sire summary for the ranking I did
the numbers mean that out of 1456 bulls he is number 1256 in epd value for the traits i ranked.
his best trait is REA and he is 316th in line in that trait.

I ranked bull for CED 1444 BW 1440 YW 542 Marb 980 REA 316
and then did a total ranking.1256

I would not touch him with a long stick.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I recently downloaded the red angus survey and have been playing with it to assist my neighbor in bull selection.

the bull you specified ranks 1256 out of 1456 bulls in the sire summary for the ranking I did

I would not touch him with a long stick.

But the question was on using his sons...

You see some bulls with a +1 to +3 for BW epd but their own birth weight is in the mid 90's. How do you interpret that?

 

[pdfangus]

that one is easy.....

There is a genetic component to birth weight....
and there is an environmental component to birth weight.

as for sons. if anyone seeks sons of a bull that ranks that lowly on the association performance measure then by all means buy them. I won't run em up on you. for my purposes, he can not have enough phenotype to climb out of that genetic hole.

I sort by perfomance measures then try to get an idea of the looks and phenotyic strengths and weaknesses.

found one red bull in the summary that I was very high on until I saw a video of him and I would not consider him now.

we all have different ways of doing things. The original posted solicited input. I offered information. it and a dollar might get a cup of coffeee in a cheaper joint.

 

[showing71]

The EPDs on one of the sons: CED 2 BW: 1.2 WW: 34 YW: 57 Milk: 6 TM: 23 ME: 1
Actuals: BW: 88lbs WW: 674 YW: 1156

The other sons have EPDs that are in about the same range. I know the cow has influence in BW also. My concern stems from an experience this calving season. We used a AI bull who had a BW EPD of 1.2, the cow has a BW of 0.8, and we got a calf that had to be pulled and weighed 120lbs. I did a little digging and found that the AI bull's sire had a 4.2 BW. I know this might be a fluke, but that is my hesitation with having a son from bull with such poor EPDs.

 

[KNERSIE]

The EPDs on one of the sons: CED 2 BW: 1.2 WW: 34 YW: 57 Milk: 6 TM: 23 ME: 1
Actuals: BW: 88lbs WW: 674 YW: 1156

The other sons have EPDs that are in about the same range. I know the cow has influence in BW also. My concern stems from an experience this calving season. We used a AI bull who had a BW EPD of 1.2, the cow has a BW of 0.8, and we got a calf that had to be pulled and weighed 120lbs. I did a little digging and found that the AI bull's sire had a 4.2 BW. I know this might be a fluke, but that is my hesitation with having a son from bull with such poor EPDs.

I think you answered yourself, heavy BW can and will most likely show its ugly head again in some of the offspring, the chance is much higher if there was some high BW ancestors on the cow side as well.

 

[dun]

You need to look at multiple prior generations. Frquently a breeder will "balance" a horrible number by breeding it to an animal that has an extreme in the other direction. Within the first 2 generations you can be almost gauranteed that the "balance" will go doewn the toilet and you'll get extremes in one direction or the other. 4-5 generations back it's not as much of a worry more of concern because it can still jump up and bite you.

 

[KNERSIE]

You need to look at multiple prior generations. Frquently a breeder will "balance" a horrible number by breeding it to an animal that has an extreme in the other direction. Within the first 2 generations you can be almost gauranteed that the "balance" will go doewn the toilet and you'll get extremes in one direction or the other. 4-5 generations back it's not as much of a worry more of concern because it can still jump up and bite you.

More so with the low inheritance traits like maternal traits, etc. Its a lot easier to fix shortcomings on a spreadsheet than in the pasture.

 

[ANAZAZI]

Even if some people find it strange, it is better to balance extreme with moderate than with the opposite extreme.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Even if some people find it strange, it is better to balance extreme with moderate than with the opposite extreme.

consistency?

 

[Stocker Steve]

I know the cow has influence in BW also. My concern stems from an experience this calving season. We used a AI bull who had a BW EPD of 1.2, the cow has a BW of 0.8, and we got a calf that had to be pulled and weighed 120lbs. I did a little digging and found that the AI bull's sire had a 4.2 BW. I know this might be a fluke, but that is my hesitation with having a son from bull with such poor EPDs.

Variation sucks...
Used a low birth weight BA bull - - got a bunch of small calves and two monster calves. Cows were about 1150 and 1250, but they had some simi or sh blood and it showed. Ate the 1150 pounder and the sh cross weaned the biggest calf on the place.

 

[dun]

I know the cow has influence in BW also. My concern stems from an experience this calving season. We used a AI bull who had a BW EPD of 1.2, the cow has a BW of 0.8, and we got a calf that had to be pulled and weighed 120lbs. I did a little digging and found that the AI bull's sire had a 4.2 BW. I know this might be a fluke, but that is my hesitation with having a son from bull with such poor EPDs.

Variation sucks...
Used a low birth weight BA bull - - got a bunch of small calves and two monster calves. Cows were about 1150 and 1250, but they had some simi or sh blood and it showed. Ate the 1150 pounder and the sh cross weaned the biggest calf on the place.

Just like you can;t screw them up too badly in one generation you can';t strighten them out in one either. 3 or 4 maybe.

 

[S&S Farms]

contact Julian if looking for a Red Angus bull. Well built and put together bulls

 

[ANAZAZI]

Even if some people find it strange, it is better to balance extreme with moderate than with the opposite extreme.

consistency?

I mean if you wish to have frame score five and have fsc6 cows it is wiser to start using fsc5 bulls to get it right eventually, than to use a fsc4 bull and "fix" it at once. Same when selecting for anything where moderation is the best path. Avoid fire and ice matings.
And if you decide to mate a 6 to a 4 then follow up with a 5. If you begin again to mate the fire-ice progeny with something non moderate, the concistency will fly out the window.There will be a backlash of some sort.

 

[showing71]

contact Julian if looking for a Red Angus bull. Well built and put together bulls

I can't do that, I have too many cows with the same bloodlines and we've gotten away from linebreeding. I did think of that though, thanks.