Would you consider?

[MikeC]

If everyone tomorrow became a vegetarian or a vegan what would you do with all the animals?

All animals aren't vegetarians.

They would start eating us.... :lol:

I say eat them first....................

 

[hillsdown]

Hey Mike what a safe and happy world it would be if we all just left the animals alone to run free as they were meant to be ;-) :lol: :lol:
I swear some people are so stupid that their own existence baffles me.

 

[3MR]

Silver Charm -

1. The articles were all by legitimate news sources or recognized experts.

2. I wasnt trying to prove that vegans were unhealthy. You listed some alledged vegatarians to attempt to prove they were healthy. I just countered in the same manner.

If you spend anytime reading my post in this forum you will realize I have a bad habit of correcting false arguments weather I agree with the conclusion or not.

Why do zealots feel everybody is either with them or against them.

3. As far as considering the source. I challenge you to do likewise.

4. No meat eater ever starved their kid to death by giving them meat.

5. I love broccoli

Bottom line. I do belive you can live healthy life with the vegatarian lifestyle. I love meat, I just dont eat that much of it for whatever reason. I am healthy, active and not weak by a long shot. Im also not Mr. Universe and am a long way from the caloric intake that woudl be required to get there.

 

[3MR]

My cows are vegetarians. If I eat them is it considered supporting the vegetarian lifestyle. 8)

 

[Bullbuyer]

I like beans, cornbread, fried potatoes and onions. Does that make me a vegetarian?

 

[3MR]

I like beans, cornbread, fried potatoes and onions. Does that make me a vegetarian?

Stop your making me hungry. You vegitarians are all the same.

 

[Gate Opener]

I like beans, cornbread, fried potatoes and onions. Does that make me a vegetarian?

Sounds good. I've gotta have bacon in those beans and bacon grease in the fried taters is nice also. Come to think of it bacon grease in the pan before the cornbread goes in. YUM! :lol:

 

[L Weir]

AngusLimox,

Hardly anyone knows I am a vegan, and if you ever met me, you would not have a clue.

I would never tell you what to eat. If you want a big steak, go right ahead, I'm not stopping you!

So,what was the purpose of this question besides being curious if anybody else was too? Do you raise and sell cattle or are you one that collects them from the sale barn to live out their lives in a pasture?

 

[Bullbuyer]

OOPS! Left off that part about the bacon drippings. Wouldn't mind having a nice piece of sirloin tip roawst to go along with them beans! Of course, being vegetarian I'll need to slow cook that roast along with some carrots and celery!
I gotta go get something to snack on - done made myself hungry!

 

[Outrigger2]

i love animals....






they're delicious

 

[Frankie]

Frankie, read my post! I never said Scott was a vegan, I said he was a vegetarian!!

So let's recap:

you say

Like I said before, I am not a vegan for the animals, but for my health.

Veganism is not a diet. It is a way of life that includes diet. For example, vegans don't wear leather; it will not affect YOUR health to wear leather. They claim not to take pills in gelcaps. That won't affect your health.

So are you ignorant of what the term vegan means; or are you being dishonest about why you don't eat meat?

Scott is not a vegetarian if he eats fish. You have put out a bunch of people's names and claimed they were vegetarian with no references at all. I only had to do a simple search to see you were not being truthful. You use the terms vegan/vegetarian interchangeably. That's dishonest. Most vegetarians, I believe over 70%, in the US eat eggs and use dairy products. They get protein and B12 from animal products. Vegans would do neither. To use the two terms as if they were the same is an insult to vegetarians, IMO.

 

[Frankie]

I don't preach. but here you go...

"Consider this: 100 calories of steak has 5.4 grams of protein. 100 calories of broccoli has 11.2, almost twice as much.
I’ll go to Answers on Yahoo or any number of forums where people are asking questions about vegetarians and vegans. Then someone will pop in who obviously hasn’t read up on nutritional content or anything about the veg*n lifestyle and say things like “The only place you can get protein is meat.” Or the people asking questions will pretty much always bring up the whole protein issue. And I can’t say this enough:

It is a MYTH.

Give me a break. No one eats 100 calories of steak, though they may eat 100 calories of broccali. You're trying to change the subject because you can't defend yourself. 3 Oz of steak is an excellent source of 5 important vitamins (protein, zinc, vitamin B12, selenium and phosphorus) and a good source of 4 (niacin, vitamin B6, iron and riboflavin) essential nutrients you need every day. Let's see what else broccali brings to the table?

The average American diet contains meat and dairy products. As a result, it is often too high in protein. This can lead to a number of serious health problems:

Actually they don't eat too much protein:

"Americans are not over-consuming protein and some sub-populations actually are not getting enough. According to the study, “Pyramid Servings Intake 99-02,” on average, Americans consume only 5.3 ounces of foods from the meat and beans group per day while USDA’s MyPyramid recommends between 5 ounces and 7 ounces. NHI noted that 56 percent of the total population less than 2 years is not meeting the minimum required ounces from the meat group. Studies show that 63 percent of adult females (less than 20 years old) and 38 percent of adult males are not getting the minimum number of servings from the meat group, and therefore may not be getting the nutrients they need. In addition, 76 percent of girls ages 6-11, 72 percent of girls 12-19 and 70 percent of boys ages 6-11 are consuming less than the minimum recommended meat servings each day."

For a long time it was thought that athletes needed much more protein than other people. The truth is that athletes, even those who strength-train, need only slightly more protein, which is easily obtained in the larger servings athletes require for their higher caloric intake. Vegetarian diets are great for athletes. To consume a diet that contains enough, but not too much, protein, simply replace animal products with grains, vegetables, legumes (peas, beans, and lentils), and fruits. As long as one is eating a variety of plant foods in sufficient quantity to maintain one’s weight, the body gets plenty of protein.

Show me seven current top athletes who are vegan, not vegetarian: vegan. With references not from vegan sites.

Since Nature designed her plant foods complete, with abundant amounts of fat, protein, carbohydrates, vitamins and minerals, “Where you get a specific nutrient?” is almost never a relevant question, as long as there is enough to eat. So, why have scientists, dietitians, medical doctors, diet-book authors, and the lay public become fixated on a non-existent problem? Protein is synonymous with eating meat, poultry, fish, dairy, and eggsâ€"the foods traditionally consumed by the wealthier people in a societyâ€"thus, protein-eating means higher social status. High-protein foods are also high-profit foods. Therefore, propagating the protein myth is motivated by egos and moneyâ€"and the usual consequences of pain and suffering follow closely behind these two human frailties."

Nature didn't creat plant foods perfectly. She forgot to add B12. B12 is an essential vitamin and it is not available in any plant food.

Your references are a joke. They are vegans or vegetarians out to sell their books or their foods or their lifestyle. Don't put such trash on this board again.

Yes, that ONE DAY is pretty typical of what I normally eat. Please, do some research before giving an ignorant post.

That doesn't answer my question (no surprise there) about what you, personally ate yesterday or today. Let's see what you actually put in your body. Many young vegan females have eating disorders. Are you one of them?

I never said Abraham Lincoln was a vegan. Please don't lump me or the majority of vegans in with the few vegans you know.

LOL. You never said Lincoln was a vegan, but you implied the former swimmers, etc., were vegan by using vegan/vegetarian interchangeably. That's the way every vegan I ever met on the net conducts themselves. If you want to be treated with respect, your claims received with respect, list some references (not vegan ones) to support them.

Yes, some animals are killed with plowing, but far less than a slaughterhouse! As I said before, I am NOT a vegan for the animals!

There you go again, making claims you can't back up. I can tell you pretty much how many cattle are killed each year for human consumption. The USDA tracks that data. You have absolutely no idea how many animals die in the fields, how many nests are destroyed, by plowing, planting, harvesting the grains, veggies you eat. No one keeps track of that. As for being a vegan for health purposes, either you don't know the meaning of the word vegan or you're lying.

Hmm, well actually I did offer references...[/b]

ROTFLMAO!

 

[Frankie]

Common sources of specific amino acids are:
Histidine: Apple, pomogranates, alfalfa, beets, carrots, celery, cucumber, dandelion, endive, garlic, radish, spinach, turnip greens.
Arginine: Alfalfa, beets, carrots, celery, cucumbers, green vegetables, leeks, lettuce, potatoes, radishes, parsnips, nutritional yeast.
Valine: Apples, almonds, pomegranates, beets, carrots, celery, dandelion greens, lettuce, okra, parsley, parsnips, squash, tomatoes, turnips, nutritional yeast.
Tryptophan: Alfalfa, brussel sprouts, carrots, celery, chives, dandelion greens, endive, fennel, snap beans, spinach, turnips, nutritional yeast.
Threnoine: Papayas, alfalfa sprouts, carrots, green leafy vegetables such as celery, collards, kale, and lettuce (especially iceberg), lima beans, laver (Nori -- a sea vegetable).
Phenylalanine: Apples, pineapples, beets, carrots, parsley, spinach, tomatoes, nutritional yeast.
Methionine: Apples, pineapples, Brazil nuts, filberts, brussels sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, chives, dock (sorrel), garlic, horseradish, kale, watercress.
Lysine: Apples, apricots, grapes, papayas, pears, alfalfa, beets, carrots, celery, cucumber, dandelion greens, parsley, spinach, turnip greens.
Leucine: Avocados, papayas, olives, coconut, sunflower seeds.
Isoleucine: Avocados, papayas, olives, coconut, sunflower seeds.

And some in general examples of plant foods containing high sources of protein:
PROTEIN IN LEGUMES: Garbanzo beans, Kidney beans, Lentils, Lima beans, Navy beans, Soybeans, Split peas
PROTEIN IN GRAINS: Barley, Brown rice, Buckwheat, Millet, Oatmeal, Rye, Wheat germ, Wheat, hard red, Wild rice
VEGETABLE PROTEIN: Artichokes, Beets, Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, Cabbage, Cauliflower, Cucumbers, Eggplant, Green peas, Green pepper, Kale, Lettuce, Mushrooms, Mustard green, Onions, Potatoes, Spinach, Tomatoes, Turnip greens, Watercress, Yams, Zucchini
PROTEIN IN FRUITS: Apple, Banana, Cantaloupe, Grape, Grapefruit, Honeydew melon, Orange, Papaya, Peach, Pear, Pineapple, Strawberry, Tangerine, Watermelon
PROTEIN IN NUTS AND SEEDS: Almonds, Cashews, Filberts, Hemp Seeds, Peanuts, Pumpkin seeds, Sesame seeds, Sunflower seeds, Walnuts (black)

More hot air without references. :roll:

 

[Txwalt]

http://www.usask.ca/education/ideas/tpl ... n/pole.htm

this is copied from the above site

"Tell students that in 1997 Canadian (Saskaktchewan born) Denise Martin became the first woman to reach the North Pole when she co-led a party of 20 British women in the first all-female journey to the Pole. The women's relay team started at Resolute Bay, N.W.T. on their 10 week trip, walking the final 200 kilometres in nine days, hardly stopping because a stop-over meant that they were actually further from the Pole next morning because the trans-Polar ice stream made the huge ice sheet they were on to drifting southward and further away from the Pole."

I did a google of Nicky Cole and got nothing. Whatever your using as a reference does not seem to be very accurate. Nicky Cole was the first one I checked. I have to admit I did check one other because I was wondering what the hell race walking is. Seems race walking is an olympic sport. Go figure.

Walt

 

[john250]

Silvercharm
Frankie has you by the short curlies. Go back to your NY buddies who swallow your line.
If you want to be a vegetarian, God bless you. If you want to legislate your left bank sensibilities into law, forget it.
Let the market decide. Sell veggietarianism, and we will sell beef. If you dominate the market, good for you. I can grow veggies. The market tells me to grow good, wholesome, source identified and process verified beef.
I eat my own beef. Treated exactly the same as the calves I sell to others. I'm darned healthy. My grandad lived about the same lifestyle and made 97. He had two eggs for breakfast, from the time he was 7.
What pisses me off about veggies and vegans alike, is the attacks on food. (From here on I will use V's to denote Veggies and Vegans alike)
The V's have become religion. And every religion needs to evangelize. Since the V's have no science in their favor, they have to sensationalize the danger of "common" food. If you ever ate a fast food meal, you are likely to get 5 forms of cancer and your children will have extra thumbs".
Evangelical V's have my support if they wish to find suppliers of food products they wish to purchase. I will fight them to the end if they want to mandate a V diet for everyone--and that does appear to be the goal.
What would a choice 12 oz ribeye be worth, if it was illegal?
What would you pay for organic brocolli if it was illegal?
I rest my case.

 

[SilverCharm]

http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg/ad ... U_HTML.htm

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Approximately 2.5% of adults in the United States and 4% of adults in Canada follow vegetarian diets. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat, fish or fowl. Interest in vegetarianism appears to be increasing, with many restaurants and college foodservices offering vegetarian meals routinely. Substantial growth in sales of foods attractive to vegetarians has occurred, and these foods appear in many supermarkets. This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians, including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer."

Most people do eat more than 100 calories of steak, true. 100 calories of steak was compared to 100 calories of broccoli to show you that broccoli has more protein than steak when compared calorie wise.

Broccoli has:
vitamin c, k, a and e, folate, dietary fiber, maganese, tryptophan, potassium, vitamin b6, b5, b3, b1 and b2, phosphorus, magnesium, omega 3 fatty acids, iron, calcium, and zinc.

"Like other cruciferous vegetables, broccoli contains the phytonutrients sulforaphane and the indoles, which have significant anti-cancer effects. Research on indole-3-carbinol shows this compound helps deactivate a potent estrogen metabolite (4-hydroxyestrone) that promotes tumor growth, especially in estrogen-sensitive breast cells, while at the same time increasing the level of 2-hydroxyestrone, a form of estrogen that can be cancer-protective. Indole-3-carbinol has been shown to suppress not only breast tumor cell growth, but also cancer cell metastasis (the movement of cancerous cells to other parts of the body)."

http://www.whfoods.org/genpage.php?tnam ... ice&dbid=9 (has a chart of the vitamins)


"Many people say that the only foods which contain vitamin B12 are animal-derived foods. This also is untrue. No foods naturally contain vitamin B12 - neither animal or plant foods. Vitamin B12 is a microbe - a bacteria - it is produced by microorganisms. Vitamin B12 is the only vitamin that contains a trace element - cobalt - which gives this vitamin its chemical name - cobalamin - which is at the centre of its molecular structure. Humans and all vertebrates require cobalt, although it is assimilated only in the form of vitamin B12."

"B12 synthesis is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine (in the ileum), which is the primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce vitamin B12."

"A B12 deficiency can be caused by antibiotics (from the drugs themselves and contained in milk and meat), alcohol (alcohol damages the liver, so drinkers need more B12) and smoking (and all high temp cooked food is smoky) and stress also raises B12 needs)."

"The author [Dr. Vetrano] does not believe that a vitamin B12 deficiency is more widespread in vegans or vegetarians - this is probably just another marketing lie! In fact, many so-called studies 'showing vegans deficient' have to be carefully studied themselves - many of them do not prove vegans to be deficient at all! In fact, contrary to meat and dairy industry propaganda, meat-eaters are known to be more likely to have a vitamin B12 deficiency - this has been known since 1959!!(1)"

"The author contends that animal and dairy produce is a poor source of Vitamin B12 since they are normally cooked and thereore the vitamin is contained in nutrient-deranged foodstuffs which will inevitably destroy the usability of the vitamin. Studies show that those following a typical animal-based diet require more vitamin B12 than those who do not. This is because the typical diet leads to digestive atrophy. Because B12 is peptide-bound in animal products and must be enzymatically cleaved from the peptide bonds to be absorbed, a weakened gastric acid and gastric enzyme secretions (due to a cooked food diet) causes an inability to efficiently extract vitamin B12 from external food. Nevertheless, raw food vegans can actually get more B12 by reabsorption from bile than they do from external food. Wolfe argues that the natural soil microbes and bacteria found on wild plant foods and unwashed garden plants are typically adequate to supply our B12 requirements. The natural microbes in the soil need to be duplicated and to colonise in our digestive tract, without fermentation or putrefaction."

http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html

B12 used to be present in dirt and water, and everyone used to get their share. Due to present farming methods, however, b12 is not as prevalent.


Veganism is a diet. Many vegans, however, avoid all animal products including leather. Key word: many. Not all. According to the dictionary, vegans are defined as;
"A vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vegan

 

[SilverCharm]

For the essential amino acid content in common foods, here is a link:

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein

Yes, it is a vegan website, but the sources are:

"- Amino acid RDAs were taken from Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids (Macronutrients) (2002) by the Food and Nutrition Board (FNB) of the Institute of Medicine.
- The protein and amino acid content of foods was taken from the USDA and Naturade protein powder labels."

 

[SilverCharm]

Okay, seven (plus one more) vegan athletes with no vegan website references:

1. Peter Brock
Austrailian touring car driver

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=142882

2. Mac Danzig
Professional mixed martial art master

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Danzig

3. Scott Jurek
Ultramarathon runner

http://www.scottjurek.com/bio.php

4. Carl Lewis
Nine time Olympic champion (track and field)

http://www.amazon.com/Very-Vegetarian-J ... 474&sr=8-1 (His book)

or http://www.carllewis.com

5. James Southwood
British Savate kickboxing champion

http://www.jamessouthwood.com/

6. Salim Stoudamire
NBA basketball player, Atlanta Hawks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Stoudamire

7. Ed Templeton
Professional Skateboarder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Templeton

8. Brendan Brazier
Professional Ironman Triathlete

http://www.brendanbrazier.com/

 

[Frankie]

My challenge: "Show me seven current top athletes who are vegan, not vegetarian: vegan. With references not from vegan sites."

You failed.

"1. Peter Brock
Austrailian touring car driver
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=142882"

The man is dead. At a young age, too. So obviously he doesn't meet the challenge.

"2. Mac Danzig
Professional mixed martial art master
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_Danzig"

Again, PETA is the sole claim of veganism.

"3. Scott Jurek
Ultramarathon runner
http://www.scottjurek.com/bio.php"

Congratulations. I'll give you this one.

4. Carl Lewis
Nine time Olympic champion (track and field)
http://www.amazon.com/Very-Vegetarian-J ... 474&sr=8-1 (His book)
or http://www.carllewis.com"

Lewis was not vegan when he won his Olympic metals. I don't think he's competing these days either. Your link didn't work, so show me his latest wins if I'm wrong.

"5. James Southwood
British Savate kickboxing champion
http://www.jamessouthwood.com/"

This is such a small sport. But I'll give it to you.

"6. Salim Stoudamire
NBA basketball player, Atlanta Hawks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Stoudamire"

The only thing in this article that says Stoudamire is a vegan is a PETA reference. An UNVERIFIED reference. You're making a fool of yourself, you know. You're doing just what I said you would when I mentioned Lincoln. You're making claims about athletes that aren't true.

"7. Ed Templeton
Professional Skateboarder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Templeton"

Apparently no longer competing either.

"8. Brendan Brazier
Professional Ironman Triathlete
http://www.brendanbrazier.com/"

Doubtful, but I'll give you this one, too.

 

[Frankie]

Veganism is a diet. Many vegans, however, avoid all animal products including leather. Key word: many. Not all. According to the dictionary, vegans are defined as;
"A vegetarian who omits all animal products from the diet."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vegan

No, veganism is a lifestyle.

"The term vegan was coined by Donald Watson in 1944 and was defined as follows:

Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals (Stepaniak)."

In case you don't know, Donald Watson invented veganism.

"Veganism (also strict or pure vegetarianism) is a philosophy and lifestyle that seeks to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose.[1] Vegans do not use or consume animal products of any kind.[2] The most popular reasons for becoming a vegan are concerns for animal rights, the environment, or human health, and spiritual or religious concerns.[3][4] Of particular concern are the practices involved in factory farming and animal testing, and the intensive use of land and other resources required for animal farming."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

": a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products; also : one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)"

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/vegan

Obviously wearning leather doesn't affect your health.