auctionboy
Well-known member
You should not think about breed as much and hind the best bull for the money you want to spend.
wich breed
- Thread starter trin
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Go to Thornecattle.com and scroll down to "what is Braunvieh" and see pictures of different breeds xed with Braunvieh. Also, Braunvieh is the basis for the American Brown Swiss.Roadapple":36mkmytl said:
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Trin - The fact that you have stated "I have a Braunvieh based herd . . .and . . ."selling steers and keeping replacements says many things to me. Your cow herd is a 'colorful' mix of ???? but based Braunvieh. In other words, your cows are ALREADY crossbred, but who know how much of what??trin":3lghz11p said:
NOW is the time to get serious with a planned breeding system, instead of guessing what additional mix you can stir into the soup! I recommend you sit down with a sharp pencil, and plan your next 10-15 years breeding program, and then plan backwards to - today - and organize your strong cow herd genetics, (if Braunvieh is predominate - that is fine), and 'wash out' the negative genetics of a bunch of probably 'not very good' breeders.
If there are five or six or more different breeds combined with "Cow "A", you really don't KNOW what all is mixed up genetically. Therefore, you should 'solidify' your base breed genetics - whatever you wish that to be, - Braunvieh, Angus (Red or Black) Hereford - whatever. Because you state that Braunvieh is your base, we will organize from that base.
Your primary thought right now should be, "What BREED bull should I use RIGHT NOW to enable me to get a STRONG base for future cross-breeding? ANSWER: NONE of the breeds which you have suggested in this post! I am not cutting down ANY of the mentioned breeds! Your next bull should be the VERY BEST Braunvieh bull you can find - live animal or AI from the best herd you can find! If your concern is primarilly for replacements from this next calf crop, you can obtain sexed embryo's and have them ALL females. Big time saver for upgrading your herd. Saves YEARS of hoping and guessing. Then select the BEST females from that crop and feedlot the balance of them.
Now - next breeding season use the SAME Braunvieh bull (if he proves to be as great as he should be, and you are satisfied with his calves from THIS breeding this year ) on the same cows as before, and follow the same procedure as you did this year. When you have UPGRADED your cow herd to your satisfaction, THEN is the time to put your crossbreeding protocol into action! At that time you have a high percentage ( 90+?) predominately Continental-based herd of brood cows. (Braunvieh). In the meantime you have culled your poorer producers, and strengthened your genetics and phenotype traits, and are adequately prepared for your NEXT BREED infusion by selecting the VERY BEST British breed - Red Angus or Black Angus or Hereford Bull. Always bear this in mind: while the "breed" is important, it is not nearly as important as the QUALITY of the phenoptype and genotype of the Herd Bulls you select! Without the use of HIGH quality bulls, you are just spinning your wheels in a mix of scrub mud breeders, and getting NOWHERE!
Now - this crop of calves will be 50% British ( Black Angus, Red Angus, or Hereford) and 45+% Braunvieh. This is a good, solid crossbreed formula for a cow herd, IF that is what you are seeking. On the other hand, if you would be looking toward a purebred cow herd (NOT registered operation), keep using Braunvieh bulls for each calf crop.
Assuming you are keeping a certain percentage of replacements from each calf crop, - the NEXT (Fourth generation) bull selection should be either of the OTHER British breeds (which was not used in the last cross) on the FOURTH generation replacements. Then, when the NEXT (5th) generation bull selection arrives - go back to Braunvieh to strengthen your Base once more! When ALL of your current MIX-MASTER cows have been culled and you are using the F1 heifers which, by then, are 5-6 years of age, then you can consider which breed Bull will work best with THOSE genetically improved cows. The critical point I want to make here is this: you CAN'T make a silk purse out of a sows ear. If you mix up your herd with a cross section of genetics - you will continue to have a cross section of genetics which will not nick well with other genetics. To be successful with a breeding plan, it must be organized and consistent - and DON'T deviate from your 'canned, planned procedure". I like a three breed only crossbreeding program the best. It simplifies the operation more than a four-breed plan. That can get pretty complicated!
Give this some long, deep thought, and if I can be of help, PM me.
DOC HARRIS
dun":2b6cydti said:
The Braunvieh Borwn Swiss deal is kind of tomato tomatoe. The Durham beacme Milking Shorthorn when selected for milk, beef Shorthorn were the same aniamls but selected for beef.
Borwn cattle in the past in the US anyway were orignally considered a milking breed and are/were called Borwn Swiss. Different selection criteria and the became what is known as Braunvieh.
dun
I don't often disagree with Doc Harris; but this is one of those times. Trin already has a "Braunvieh based" cowherd. In my world that would be interpreted as that most of the cows are ~25-75% Braunvieh with most being around 50%. That there was no mention of what the other ~25-75% is means that they are probably mixed enough that there is no strong #2 breed; but rather a half dozen or so breeds in the mix. I prefer crossbreeding. I would rather not breed a 50% Braunvieh to a Braunvieh (you can substitute Hereford, Angus, or Char or anything else in here) and certainly not breed a 75% cow back to that same breed. To me going away from the Braunvieh for a while and then coming back to it in 5-10 years is the way too go.... not losing heterosis and becoming virtually a fullblood Braunvieh herd.
I think the four breeds on your list are VERY diverse. Marchigiana's (assuming that is what a "Markie" is) are a very thick, heavy muscled breed most commonly used on British or dairy cattle too add thickness and red meat. Your Braunviehs should be pretty thick already and I have some reservations about adding MORE thickness to an already sufficiently well muscled cow herd. Usually Marchigiana's are used as terminal sires not to produce replacements. This would be my least favorite choice for this scenario.
Salers are a continental breed that is known for being the moderate continental. Not as heavy muscled as a Char or Limo. Not heavy milking like the simmie, Pinzgauer or Gelbvieh. The problem they had here is that we already had the British breeds so really did not need a Continental that earned its pay on grass and moderated birth wt. compared to other Continental type cattle. They also got a little bit of a reputation as being high strung. Braunvieh times Salers is an interesting cross. I am kind of reluctant too recommend a continental x continental cross breeding system. The feedlots seem too prefer continental x British and MOST commercial cattlemen seem too avoid going over 75% continental in the brood cow herd.
Black Beefmaster. I am still having a difficult time adjusting to beefmasters being black and probably think I am looking at a Brangus when I see one. This will add both British and Ear genetics too the mix. Braunvieh x beefmaster will typically be a big roomy long bodied heavy milking kind of cow and is certainly the cross that adds the most hybrid vigour. Will those 1/2 Beefmaster steers receive a dock though in your market? I last used a gert on hereford cross cows and took a severe hit on that calf crop even though I liked the looks and uniformity of the group. The further south you go the more I like the eared breeds....the further north you go the less reason I see for using them though. You can slap an Angus bull on Braunvieh-x/Beefmaster cows and produce a pretty uniform calf crop; but how much money will you lose in the next five to seven years on the half beefmaster brothers??? Like the Salers, I also think there is a danger of bringing in attitude problems with the Beefmasters. You need to be especially aware of this when you select your bull.
Murray Greys are a British breed known for their easy fleshing, ability too convert on grass, marbling, typically moderate frame, tenderness, etc. Of the four breeds on the list, I would pick the British breed too use on Braunvieh cross cows; though I wonder why you have summarily ruled out Angus, Hereford, Red ANgus, and Shorthorn? Are they just too "COMMON" for your list??
I am kind of worried though about how we got a list that included a double muscled breed, a standard continental breed, an eared breed, and a British breed. Typically we know what direction we want to go and are picking from amoung a family of breeds: muscle breeds (Marchigiana, Romagnola, Piedmontese, Belgian Blue), standard continentals (Salers, Limousin, Charolais, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Pinzgauer), eared (Beefmasters, Santa Gertrudis, Simbrah, Brangus), or British (Murray Grey, Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, Red Angus). You picked one breed from each of the four major subgroups. That indicates too me that you really don't know what direction you want to go with this herd. I suggest that you take Doc's advice and formulate a plan. Take some pictures of your cows, any data you might have (avg weaning wts for the last three years, mature cow wts, % calf crop, etc) and go talk to your buyers, your stockyard operators, your university beef experts, knowledgable fellow cattlemen, etc and ask them what they think you should do. You might wants to lay aside $250 for gas money and take the time too go look at a lot of cattle in person. Be honest with the breeders and tell them what you are doing and let them put on their best sales pitch for their breed. Listen to as many voices as possible and come up with a long term comprehensive plan before you buy any bull.
I think the four breeds on your list are VERY diverse. Marchigiana's (assuming that is what a "Markie" is) are a very thick, heavy muscled breed most commonly used on British or dairy cattle too add thickness and red meat. Your Braunviehs should be pretty thick already and I have some reservations about adding MORE thickness to an already sufficiently well muscled cow herd. Usually Marchigiana's are used as terminal sires not to produce replacements. This would be my least favorite choice for this scenario.
Salers are a continental breed that is known for being the moderate continental. Not as heavy muscled as a Char or Limo. Not heavy milking like the simmie, Pinzgauer or Gelbvieh. The problem they had here is that we already had the British breeds so really did not need a Continental that earned its pay on grass and moderated birth wt. compared to other Continental type cattle. They also got a little bit of a reputation as being high strung. Braunvieh times Salers is an interesting cross. I am kind of reluctant too recommend a continental x continental cross breeding system. The feedlots seem too prefer continental x British and MOST commercial cattlemen seem too avoid going over 75% continental in the brood cow herd.
Black Beefmaster. I am still having a difficult time adjusting to beefmasters being black and probably think I am looking at a Brangus when I see one. This will add both British and Ear genetics too the mix. Braunvieh x beefmaster will typically be a big roomy long bodied heavy milking kind of cow and is certainly the cross that adds the most hybrid vigour. Will those 1/2 Beefmaster steers receive a dock though in your market? I last used a gert on hereford cross cows and took a severe hit on that calf crop even though I liked the looks and uniformity of the group. The further south you go the more I like the eared breeds....the further north you go the less reason I see for using them though. You can slap an Angus bull on Braunvieh-x/Beefmaster cows and produce a pretty uniform calf crop; but how much money will you lose in the next five to seven years on the half beefmaster brothers??? Like the Salers, I also think there is a danger of bringing in attitude problems with the Beefmasters. You need to be especially aware of this when you select your bull.
Murray Greys are a British breed known for their easy fleshing, ability too convert on grass, marbling, typically moderate frame, tenderness, etc. Of the four breeds on the list, I would pick the British breed too use on Braunvieh cross cows; though I wonder why you have summarily ruled out Angus, Hereford, Red ANgus, and Shorthorn? Are they just too "COMMON" for your list??
I am kind of worried though about how we got a list that included a double muscled breed, a standard continental breed, an eared breed, and a British breed. Typically we know what direction we want to go and are picking from amoung a family of breeds: muscle breeds (Marchigiana, Romagnola, Piedmontese, Belgian Blue), standard continentals (Salers, Limousin, Charolais, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Pinzgauer), eared (Beefmasters, Santa Gertrudis, Simbrah, Brangus), or British (Murray Grey, Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, Red Angus). You picked one breed from each of the four major subgroups. That indicates too me that you really don't know what direction you want to go with this herd. I suggest that you take Doc's advice and formulate a plan. Take some pictures of your cows, any data you might have (avg weaning wts for the last three years, mature cow wts, % calf crop, etc) and go talk to your buyers, your stockyard operators, your university beef experts, knowledgable fellow cattlemen, etc and ask them what they think you should do. You might wants to lay aside $250 for gas money and take the time too go look at a lot of cattle in person. Be honest with the breeders and tell them what you are doing and let them put on their best sales pitch for their breed. Listen to as many voices as possible and come up with a long term comprehensive plan before you buy any bull.
Brandonm2":3peb54vg said:
the best plan is to: make a plan. pick one other breed you think will work and stick with it. go into a 2 breed rotation and go back and forth between the 2 breeds of bulls or, if you have enough cows, have one of each and breed the mostly braunvieh cows to the other breed and vice versa. having a different bull breed every year just screams to everyone that sees your herd: "I DONT HAVE A PLAN!"
the uniformity, consistency and predictability you gain will by far pay better dividends that the heterosis you might gain with all the different breeds.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
trin-
In this post you have the benefit of a lot of thoughts and ideas - most of which mandate a PLAN prior to purchasing any animal. I agree. With your limited acreage, a complicated strategy of cross-breeding, while optimal, is impracticable. In this regard, I agree with Brandonm2 concerning a two-breed crossbreeding plan. With that in mind, I would like to present a couple of links which should help you learn and understand the sometimes complicated and involved protocols of cross-breeding. Every knowledgeable breeder recognizes and accepts the evidence that crossbreeding offers at least two advantages to the serious Beef Cattle Breeder: heterosis or hybrid vigor, and breed complimentarity. Breed complimentarity is mixing breeds which compliment each other - the strong characteristics of one breed offset the weaker traits of another thereby resulting in more profitable progeny.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... I3926.html
https://intranet.nalf.org/horde/imp/vie ... aa80225c93
These links will be of invaluable assistance in your efforts to set-up and install a practical and workable PLAN for your particular circumstances and physical plant.
Don't procrastinate! DO IT NOW! (Well, I guess you can wait until after Christmas Eve Dinner! :santa: :lol2: )
MERRY CHRISTMAS
DOC HARRIS
In this post you have the benefit of a lot of thoughts and ideas - most of which mandate a PLAN prior to purchasing any animal. I agree. With your limited acreage, a complicated strategy of cross-breeding, while optimal, is impracticable. In this regard, I agree with Brandonm2 concerning a two-breed crossbreeding plan. With that in mind, I would like to present a couple of links which should help you learn and understand the sometimes complicated and involved protocols of cross-breeding. Every knowledgeable breeder recognizes and accepts the evidence that crossbreeding offers at least two advantages to the serious Beef Cattle Breeder: heterosis or hybrid vigor, and breed complimentarity. Breed complimentarity is mixing breeds which compliment each other - the strong characteristics of one breed offset the weaker traits of another thereby resulting in more profitable progeny.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distributi ... I3926.html
https://intranet.nalf.org/horde/imp/vie ... aa80225c93
These links will be of invaluable assistance in your efforts to set-up and install a practical and workable PLAN for your particular circumstances and physical plant.
Don't procrastinate! DO IT NOW! (Well, I guess you can wait until after Christmas Eve Dinner! :santa: :lol2: )
MERRY CHRISTMAS
DOC HARRIS
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Brandonm2 that was an EXCELLENT post. It is wonderful that anyone will take the time to answer so completely & (I feel) honest, good advice.
Hats off to you & Doc.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!
Hats off to you & Doc.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!!!
SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE
Well-known member
It would seem that the Murray Greys have it! That would be an excellent choice. ;-)
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
SPRINGER FARMS MURRAY GRE":2pgm9ey0 said:
Mike I have been waiting on that response for days. Was beginning to think we couldn't count on you anymore! :lol: :lol:
