Why no DNA testing?

[Alan]

I have a Hereford cow that I AI'd last june, her due date was 3/16. After I AI'd the cows I waited 21 days and turned a clean up bull out with the herd. If she calves today is she 9 days late or 12 days early? (assuming she was bred by the clean up bull right away, or even a couple days later.

I called the AHA to see how they verify parentage on AI calves..... they don't. You can do a DNA test but it's not required. I wonder how many Felton 517 cattle may not be 517 (just picked a popular bull, not picking on 517, could be Online, M326,20X). I would think owners of the $100,000+ bulls would want to protect there reputition better.

Just my rant this morning, I think the system could be much better. How does the Angus Association handle this?

Alan

 

[bandit80]

I have often wondered the same thing, fortunately I have never had to deal with the situation. Have had a few calves to 3 or 4 days past AI due date, but never more than that. It does make you wonder about all of the popular AI bulls for each breed. Do producers guess on those "tweeners".

I'm sure you've heard the rule of thumb, heifers born early, bulls born late. So if it is 10 days late and a bull, could be AI. If it is 14 days early and a heifer, could be bull bred. Only one way to test, and I'm guessing DNA tests are somewhat expensive???

 

[Angus In Texas]

I believe the last DNA tests we had done ran $25 a head. And yes I'm sure there are plenty of instances where animals are not of the correct breeding according to their registered pedigrees. This is where breeder reputation and honesty plays a huge roll.

 

[dun]

The registered breeders that I know wait at least one complete missed heat cycle before turning them in with the clean up bull. That pretty well tells you who's the daddy

 

[bandit80]

I believe the last DNA tests we had done ran $25 a head. And yes I'm sure there are plenty of instances where animals are not of the correct breeding according to their registered pedigrees. This is where breeder reputation and honesty plays a huge roll.

That isn't as much as I had anticipated.

I have heard of some breeders who will say a calf is out of a particular bull, just because. Like you say, their breeder reputation leaves something to be desired.

 

[TexasBred]

Well I posted this once but it disappeared....At 21 days I'd have been watching for signs of heat in the heifer and that would have answered my questions. If no heat then turn the bull in around day 28-30. Don't want to waste $50 semen and not know if my calf came from that wonderful bull I chose or another bull of last resort. I've seen some large well known operations AI one day and then turn them in with a cleanup bull the next. Guess that gets back to your original question.

 

[Frankie]

I have a Hereford cow that I AI'd last june, her due date was 3/16. After I AI'd the cows I waited 21 days and turned a clean up bull out with the herd. If she calves today is she 9 days late or 12 days early? (assuming she was bred by the clean up bull right away, or even a couple days later.

I called the AHA to see how they verify parentage on AI calves..... they don't. You can do a DNA test but it's not required. I wonder how many Felton 517 cattle may not be 517 (just picked a popular bull, not picking on 517, could be Online, M326,20X). I would think owners of the $100,000+ bulls would want to protect there reputition better.

Just my rant this morning, I think the system could be much better. How does the Angus Association handle this?

Alan

The Angus Association handles it the same way. You can test if you want, but they assume the breeder is honest. I know some breeders who routinely test their calf crop, but since we don't use a clean up bull, it's not a particular concern for us. We buy cattle from people we know and trust, which doesn't mean mistakes won't happen.

I don't see it as a big deal. If a bull is to have a major influence in the breed, he'll be used AI. I assume the Hereford Assn, like the Angus Assn, requires DNA testing on all AI sires and cows to be flushed? A bull used natural service isn't going to impact breeds the size of Angus or Hereford very much.

 

[MikeC]

Since most bulls are bought my folks that get to sale 10 minutes before sale time and buy the cheapest bulls, what does it matter? Just joking................. :lol: :lol:

Had a friend who sold a bull that was DNA'ed by the buyer and the test found him not to be the son of the bull claimed. The original bull seller jumped through all types of hoops to figure out how he made a mistake.

In the end he found out the buyer had obviously put the wrong papers with the hairs from the bought bull that he sent for the DNA analysis......................... the original seller was vindicated after about three months of expense and worry. :roll:

 

[RVF]

In Canada, DNA testing is $50.00. Hereford Association requires that there be a minimum of 17days between when 1 bull is removed and the next is put in, but it requires the producer follows the rules (I know some who don't). Any questionable animals must be DNA tested (I have one now I am waiting on - bull got out of his pasture into the next), but again it depends on the producer to identify that the animal needs testing. Also there is random parentage testing in place. All AI bulls must be parentage tested and all natural service bulls must be DNA tested (I do not think they are parentage tested - ie. not checked to see if he could have come from the sire indicated).

 

[pdfangus]

I believe the last DNA tests we had done ran $25 a head. And yes I'm sure there are plenty of instances where animals are not of the correct breeding according to their registered pedigrees. This is where breeder reputation and honesty plays a huge roll.

who did you have these tests run by?

I have contacted igenity and they want 65 per but this is a complete DNA workup and not just parentage.

Bovigen had not repsonded to my pricing inquiries as of yet but it has only been a couple days.

 

[Alan]

I'm not familar with bovine DNA testing, but the AQHA has a company do it for $35 a head, its required for Stallions and Mares and foals of any AI breeding.

To me this just seems like a no brainer, it's too sloppy and leaves too many chances for mistakes. It's just too easy of a problem to fix and an opportunity to give more legitimacy and revenue to associations. I'm not saying to DNA every calf, just the ones you register.

If I'm buying a $2000 heifer I would like the association to back the pedigree it issued.

Just too easy of a problem to fix,
Alan

 

[Frankie]

I believe the last DNA tests we had done ran $25 a head. And yes I'm sure there are plenty of instances where animals are not of the correct breeding according to their registered pedigrees. This is where breeder reputation and honesty plays a huge roll.

who did you have these tests run by?

I have contacted igenity and they want 65 per but this is a complete DNA workup and not just parentage.

Bovigen had not repsonded to my pricing inquiries as of yet but it has only been a couple days.

Talk to your breed association. They may have a contract with someone to do the test at a bulk price. If you're wanting to test Angus, they use MMI-Genomics. We had one tested last year. I contacted the Angus Assn, they sent a DNA packet. We put a drop of the calf's blood on the card, put it in a pre-addressed envelope, along with a $20 check. The result goes back to the AAA; they then notify you of the result and it goes on the calf's papers.

http://www.angus.org/newsroom/releases/ ... ntage.html

 

[pdfangus]

Talk to your breed association. They may have a contract with someone to do the test at a bulk price. If you're wanting to test Angus, they use MMI-Genomics. We had one tested last year. I contacted the Angus Assn, they sent a DNA packet. We put a drop of the calf's blood on the card, put it in a pre-addressed envelope, along with a $20 check. The result goes back to the AAA; they then notify you of the result and it goes on the calf's papers.



http://www.angus.org/newsroom/releases/ ... ntage.html[/quote]

Thanks,

I sent angus assn an e-mail about two weeks ago inquiring what company would be of most benefit for me from their perspective and have not yet gotten an answer from them.

 

[blacksnake]

I bet the parentage is off more times than we think. Since some producers have started posting DNA results for Tenderness, QG, and FE that can sometimes help determine who the sire is. I look over the Genestar results when they are available for sale animals. Two times I have found that the Genestar results don't jive with the sire listed. I contacted the breeder and in each case the animal was withdrawn from the sale.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

If I am not mistaken, the AHA does the DNA verification in house. You send them the hair samples and info, and they send you back the answer. It's not that expensive.

We were required to take hair samples from the boys' show heifers when we nominated for the county show. This was to provide insurance that someone didn't nominate one heifer and show another, and in case allegations of cheating were brought against anyone.

 

[CKC1586]

I didn't realize ( ?) there were so many breeds that didn't require parentage verification! The Piedmontese Association requires parentage on all animals before registration. We use GenMark.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I have an Igenity price sheet right in front of me.
Tissue sample is $35 for complete profile (carcass - Coat Color & Multi-Sire Parentage)
Tissue sample is $65 for complete profile PLUS Horned/Polled
Hair collection is $20 for Multi-Sire only.
The Simmental breed randomly checks parentage by requiring DNA testing randomly.

 

[pdfangus]

I have an Igenity price sheet right in front of me.
Tissue sample is $35 for complete profile (carcass - Coat Color & Multi-Sire Parentage)
Tissue sample is $65 for complete profile PLUS Horned/Polled
Hair collection is $20 for Multi-Sire only.
The Simmental breed randomly checks parentage by requiring DNA testing randomly.

very interesting

I exchanged e-mails with the regional guy here with pricing inquiry and he only quoted me the 65 dollar rate when I said up from that I was an angus breeder. ERGO not too worried about horns.

 

[CPL]

Alan, I sometimes wonder the same thing.

On some of these sales, when they have the vet come in and preg check to call it safe to AI or clean up bull, sometimes the vet marks it as "too close to call". I wonder how many of the buyers of these type of bred cows actually DNA test the calf when its born. I could see most of them registering it in the name of the AI sire to bring a bigger check.

Also how many bulls have had to get their pedigrees changed recently? Two big ones that come to mind are Reload and Harland. They were only changed after the DNA testing for them to get their AI permit. I also wonder about bulls that are just sold as normal sires and never recieve a DNA test.

Sure is something to think about.