Why black

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Anonymous

Maybe a stupid question but what is the big demand for black cattle? Yes I know about CAB and the perception that Angus cattle marble better but what about Red Angus and the wanna be Angus that happen to be black. A pen only has to be 51% black to qualify CAB or am I wrong. What about yield, weaning weight etc. or are not many calves sold by the pound any more?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

"A pen only has to be 51% black to qualify CAB or am I wrong."

An individual animal qualifes as CAB, not a penful. The animal must be 51% black, minimal hump, no dairy, to be considered for CAB. The he must meet quality and yield grade standards to actually be certified as CAB. Cattle known to be half Angus consistently qualify at a higher rate than generic black cattle. As for yield, weaning weight, you should look at good Angus. If you can get an ABS, Select Sires, etc. catalog, look at the WW and yearling weights on the Angus bulls. You'll see that Angus bulls compare very well with any breed. The latest MARC research shows that Angus cattle were the only British breed to have ribeyes comparable to the Continental breeds.

[email protected]
 
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A

Anonymous

"The latest MARC research shows that Angus cattle were the only British breed to have ribeyes comparable to the Continental breeds."

Even thogh I'm lookin for Red Angus or Red Brangus influence in my commercal herd, that is highly influenced of Simmental, the statement above is a big reason to prefer Continentals.



[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Frankie thanks for the correction but your response still didn't answer my question. Why black? Do Red Angus not also possess desirable carcass traits? If an animal is accepted that is 49% white I would bet that there is a heck of a lot less Angus in him than a 50%. It seems that the color thing has gotten out of hand or perhaps it is just more convenient to call all the black ones part Angus.

Don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the Angus breed as I raise reg. Red Angus And Simmentals. All things being equal when using similar type bulls of each breed ie: birth weight, mature size, dam size etc. there is little difference in perfomance on the top end calves. There is a difference however in CONSISTENCY of that performance throughout the two groups. Look out though when heterosis kicks in on the SimmAngus calves. Those calves really push the scale down and for us that's where it counts.
 
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A

Anonymous

You are Red Angus and Simmental breeder, I'm Simmental breeder too and will like to know your experiences with the crossbreed of Red Angus and Simmental (Simangus), I have been crossbreeding Limousin (Red) with some of my Simmental and Simbrah and I'm satisfied with the cross.

I DON'T LIKE BLACKS, PREFER REDS.

I think we have the same idea of color, Black is not everything.

> Frankie thanks for the correction
> but your response still didn't
> answer my question. Why black? Do
> Red Angus not also possess
> desirable carcass traits? If an
> animal is accepted that is 49%
> white I would bet that there is a
> heck of a lot less Angus in him
> than a 50%. It seems that the
> color thing has gotten out of hand
> or perhaps it is just more
> convenient to call all the black
> ones part Angus.

> Don't get me wrong I'm not
> knocking the Angus breed as I
> raise reg. Red Angus And
> Simmentals. All things being equal
> when using similar type bulls of
> each breed ie: birth weight,
> mature size, dam size etc. there
> is little difference in perfomance
> on the top end calves. There is a
> difference however in CONSISTENCY
> of that performance throughout the
> two groups. Look out though when
> heterosis kicks in on the
> SimmAngus calves. Those calves
> really push the scale down and for
> us that's where it counts.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

SimmAngus is the hottest cross going around here. Two great maternal breeds with the added performance, muscle and yield from the Simmental combined with the hardiness, vigor at birth and the polled factor of the Angus. Pigmentation is also important to reduce cancer eye and udder problems in the winter.

We lean to the Red Angus because of our bull market. A lot of our customers have some tan or buckskin cows and a black bull would give them too many grey calves or rat tails. We do breed a few black Simmentals though as the demand for them is increasing. Raise what you can sell. Actually my favorite color is green (profit).

You mentioned Dusty Dignified in another post. I remember him well. He was born in 1982 I believe and was owned by Graf's Nu-Horizon Simmentals. Tremendous performance in his calves.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

thanks, for the advise in the SimmAngus and yes I'm a Mexican Simmental breeder using Dusty Dignified since 10 yrs. ago. I'm combining him with Royal and Horizon (Dusty's son) even though I have been using some Fleckvieh (German Simmental) in the past 3 years.

If you are interested in adding to your herd some Dusty influence let me know I have plenty of semen straws.

> You mentioned Dusty Dignified in
> another post. I remember him well.
> He was born in 1982 I believe and
> was owned by Graf's Nu-Horizon
> Simmentals. Tremendous performance
> in his calves.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I just wanted to correct your thoughts that animals qualifed as CAB by the pen. They aren't CAB until the hide comes off and they're graded.

Pounds do pay. But the packers don't really want a 900+ lb. carcass. They don't seriously discount them yet, but they will. Perhaps the color thing has gotten out of hand. At a Limousin bull sale recently, it was a shame to see the mediocre black bulls outsell those good red bulls.

IMO, the demand for Angus cattle is driven by performance information. There are likely good Red Angus and Simmental cattle, and MAYBE Limousin and Salers, available. But the millions of performance records in the Angus database that creates Angus EPDs make them the most reliable. The largest cow/calf operation in my state won't buy a bull of any breed without ultrasound data. He has not bought bulls for years without EPDs. There are more Angus bulls with that sort of information available than any other breed and at reasonable prices. Consistency is important and reliable EPDs are the key to consistency.

Frankie thanks for the correction
> but your response still didn't
> answer my question. Why black? Do
> Red Angus not also possess
> desirable carcass traits? If an
> animal is accepted that is 49%
> white I would bet that there is a
> heck of a lot less Angus in him
> than a 50%. It seems that the
> color thing has gotten out of hand
> or perhaps it is just more
> convenient to call all the black
> ones part Angus.

> Don't get me wrong I'm not
> knocking the Angus breed as I
> raise reg. Red Angus And
> Simmentals. All things being equal
> when using similar type bulls of
> each breed ie: birth weight,
> mature size, dam size etc. there
> is little difference in perfomance
> on the top end calves. There is a
> difference however in CONSISTENCY
> of that performance throughout the
> two groups. Look out though when
> heterosis kicks in on the
> SimmAngus calves. Those calves
> really push the scale down and for
> us that's where it counts.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Why does this statement make you prefer Continentals? As I understood the preliminary MARC report, Angus have improved their ribeye to be comparable to Continentals, but the Continentals have not improved to compete with Angus for marbling (quality grade).

"The latest MARC research shows that Angus cattle were the only British breed to have ribeyes comparable to the Continental breeds."

Even thogh I'm lookin for Red Angus or Red Brangus influence in my commercal herd, that is highly influenced of Simmental, the statement above is a big reason to prefer Continentals.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I will not discuss breed preferences anymore, just for the record; for many people in the States being Black is synonymous of Angus and that's tricky.

True carcass merit and not hide color, should drive the commercial cattle industry.

Here are the words of a Continental Breeder:

He says beef producers interested in grade-and-yield and strong 205 weights should give "Continentals" a close look. But in perfect honesty, he adds, "If you're just selling calves at Zumbrota in the fall, go Black" The only big drawback of the beef business at the moment is the color of it's hide.

"It's not Black," he flatly states. "You can say what you want about that." But take off that hide, there's some mighty good eating.

> Why does this statement make you
> prefer Continentals? As I
> understood the preliminary MARC
> report, Angus have improved their
> ribeye to be comparable to
> Continentals, but the Continentals
> have not improved to compete with
> Angus for marbling (quality
> grade).

> "The latest MARC research
> shows that Angus cattle were the
> only British breed to have ribeyes
> comparable to the Continental
> breeds."

> Even thogh I'm lookin for Red
> Angus or Red Brangus influence in
> my commercal herd, that is highly
> influenced of Simmental, the
> statement above is a big reason to
> prefer Continentals.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Frankie thanks for the correction. I think it basically comes down to a tremendous marketing job by the American Angus Assoc. Once you develop a black commercial cowherd you will more than likely want to keep it that way. If you need to change something you can source black bulls from some of the continental breeds.

I'm from Canada and Simmental appears to be the breed of choice to work with Angus genetics up here. Red Angus works even better because of the diluter gene in some Simmentals. This is being bred out of the Simm population but there are also a lot of buckskin cows going back to Charolais.

The thing we have to keep in mind is that there is no one breed that is the be all and end all of the beef industry. How many registered hogs and chickens are sold in your area? Most are a combination of breeds now. Will this happen to the beef industry. It already is. When the packers and retailers identify what breeds and bloodlines work best for them, we will see vertical integration that will eliminate most if not all of the smaller registered beef herds. Just my thoughts.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I totally agree. When we used to market differently, we used a black Angus bull with positive carcass and growth traits. Didn't care aboyt any maternal, to us he was just a terminal cross While there are a lot more black Angus bulls then Reds to choose from, if you look hard enough you can find those outliere types of Red Angus that have the antagonistic traits for maternal, growth and carcass. It's just a lot harder with Reds. We have a few blacks but the vast majority are red, Red Angus, red Gelbvieh, and soon red Simmenthal. That's the breed that I'm having the hardest time finding good red animals in.

dun

> Frankie thanks for the correction.
> I think it basically comes down to
> a tremendous marketing job by the
> American Angus Assoc. Once you
> develop a black commercial cowherd
> you will more than likely want to
> keep it that way. If you need to
> change something you can source
> black bulls from some of the
> continental breeds.

> I'm from Canada and Simmental
> appears to be the breed of choice
> to work with Angus genetics up
> here. Red Angus works even better
> because of the diluter gene in
> some Simmentals. This is being
> bred out of the Simm population
> but there are also a lot of
> buckskin cows going back to
> Charolais.

> The thing we have to keep in mind
> is that there is no one breed that
> is the be all and end all of the
> beef industry. How many registered
> hogs and chickens are sold in your
> area? Most are a combination of
> breeds now. Will this happen to
> the beef industry. It already is.
> When the packers and retailers
> identify what breeds and
> bloodlines work best for them, we
> will see vertical integration that
> will eliminate most if not all of
> the smaller registered beef herds.
> Just my thoughts.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

lets not get into a pissing contest. In some management and marketing systems systems each has a place. It's a matter of using what is right for your system and ultimately the consumer. In our marketing group, the feedlots that buy the calves prefer a high degree of British influence, only enough continental to get frame, and so little Brahman that it is masked by the primary breed type. That's our market. I've spoken with other folks in the same type of marketing group in this area, their buyers prefer a high degree of continental. Obviously the feedlots that each group deals with has a differnt market they are providing for. I personally prefer a quarter Simmenthal or Gelbvieh, a quarter Hereford and half Angus for marketing. F1's of either british breed and either of the continentals for momma cows, or F1 Angus Hereford and use either a proper angus pull, or when they get more available and proven either Balancer or Simangus bulls. One thing I find strange, in this area, any Brahman influence is heavily discounted that includes Brangus, Gerts, etc. But pure trumpet eared, humped shouldered baby or weaned light weight calves consistantly outsell everything, including black Angus from registered herds.

dun

> "I will not discuss breed
> preferences anymore..."

> Then why did you bother to post
> the comment I questioned?
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I have been watching this board for a while now and appreciate your approach and common sense displayed. I haven't submitted much as being Canadian you don't often have a full understanding of the beef industry in the U.S. There are some similarities as well as differences.

We all produce beef however and as I see it the competition is not between breeds or countries but ultimatley between industries competing for food dollars that the consumer has to spend.

Raising a hog or chicken isn't much different the U.S. or western Canada with controlled environments. It's a different deal with beef production.

We have been in Simmentals since 1977 and have been breeding red now for 10 years. Most of the red genetics were introduced through A.I. with semen from American bulls. While the American Simm breeders were developing black genetics we were making them red. We have a website with a few pictures at <A HREF="http://www.sprucegrovecattleco.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.sprucegrovecattleco.com</A>
 
OP
A

Anonymous

What mature weights do your Simmenthal cows run?

dun

> I have been watching this board
> for a while now and appreciate
> your approach and common sense
> displayed. I haven't submitted
> much as being Canadian you don't
> often have a full understanding of
> the beef industry in the U.S.
> There are some similarities as
> well as differences.

> We all produce beef however and as
> I see it the competition is not
> between breeds or countries but
> ultimatley between industries
> competing for food dollars that
> the consumer has to spend.

> Raising a hog or chicken isn't
> much different the U.S. or western
> Canada with controlled
> environments. It's a different
> deal with beef production.

> We have been in Simmentals since
> 1977 and have been breeding red
> now for 10 years. Most of the red
> genetics were introduced through
> A.I. with semen from American
> bulls. While the American Simm
> breeders were developing black
> genetics we were making them red.
> We have a website with a few
> pictures at
> <A HREF="http://www.sprucegrovecattleco.com" TARGET="_blank">http://www.sprucegrovecattleco.com</A>
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> SimmAngus is the hottest cross
> going around here. Two great
> maternal breeds with the added
> performance, muscle and yield from
> the Simmental combined with the
> hardiness, vigor at birth and the
> polled factor of the Angus.
> Pigmentation is also important to
> reduce cancer eye and udder
> problems in the winter.

> We lean to the Red Angus because
> of our bull market. A lot of our
> customers have some tan or
> buckskin cows and a black bull
> would give them too many grey
> calves or rat tails. We do breed a
> few black Simmentals though as the
> demand for them is increasing.
> Raise what you can sell. Actually
> my favorite color is green
> (profit).

> You mentioned Dusty Dignified in
> another post. I remember him well.
> He was born in 1982 I believe and
> was owned by Graf's Nu-Horizon
> Simmentals. Tremendous performance
> in his calves.

If it is a good calf,it is a good calf regardless of you and I knowing its breed or breeds,reg.or non reg.,but where I sell,in the beef buyers eyes it all boils down to a good calf being the right color,and here in N.Ala.or N.Ga. its straw-yellow always brings the most greenbacks,then cream or white,then black-baldie,then black,and red last.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> If it is a good calf,it is a good
> calf regardless of you and I
> knowing its breed or breeds,reg.or
> non reg.,but where I sell,in the
> beef buyers eyes it all boils down
> to a good calf being the right
> color,and here in N.Ala.or N.Ga.
> its straw-yellow always brings the
> most greenbacks,then cream or
> white,then black-baldie,smokey grey, then
> black,and red last.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

According to MARC data, how do the Continental breeds compare to Angus and Herefords in fertility, calving ease, and feed efficiency? As a commercial producer, those areas are higher on my list of importance than carcass traits. Open cows, dead calves and a higher cost of gain affect profitablity more than having a smaller ribeye on the rail.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Here's a link to the latest study results

"http://fairfield.osu.edu/ag/beef/beefnov20.html"

dun

> According to MARC data, how do the
> Continental breeds compare to
> Angus and Herefords in fertility,
> calving ease, and feed efficiency?
> As a commercial producer, those
> areas are higher on my list of
> importance than carcass traits.
> Open cows, dead calves and a
> higher cost of gain affect
> profitablity more than having a
> smaller ribeye on the rail.
 

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