why angus? im confused

[Brandonm2]

Doc, Could this be caused by what type of cattle are winning at the shows? I am not an angus breeder, but I beleive that to many people are really just following trends that are caused by poor or influenced judges at the shows. Not in any one breed but all of them.

Shows are always a little at fault; but the big thing is EPDs. Now I am a HUGE proponent of EPDs. The problem is that some breeders and some bull buyers are looking for the calf with the Birth Weight EPD, milk EPD, and weaning weight EPD in the top 10% of the breed and they are not LOOKING AT THE CALF they are buying or keeping back as a replacement! 'My paper says she is in the top 10% of her breed so who cares what she looks like!!! One bull can fix those cow hocks or one bull can fix that dairy cow butt' (If you select for milk production for multiple generations IS it a shock if they have dairy cow looking butts) seems to be the attitude of some. But of course the miracle bull that eliminates all the flaws in a cowherd (without hurting the EPDs of course) only seems to make things not AS BAD and genetic "flaws" that should not be promulgated ARE and often multiplied.

 

[Tod Dague]

never had any til recently. always had limos or brahmas and brafords now

why so popular? they seem leggy and skinney to me. my wife thinks they look like they got worms all the time. mine are red and so are the rest of my cows but they seem so small and skinney by comparison.

my brafords are thicker and rounder. and the limos have got sooo much more butt on em by far. arent these the real traits were looking for? i am

im sure this has been hashed to death already but when ya got em side by side its really noticeable. specially in a 8 mo old hiefer

Why did you buy some leggy, skinny, no butt cattle of any breed?

Doesn't make much sense to buy sorry cattle then complain about having sorry stock. Sell 'em and get some good stock.

wasnt complaining...just observing. was kinda just looking for some different perspectives on how or why they have become the ''cattle of choice''. i only make the comparison as they stand next to my other animals and im sure they are quality and on par with any angus cow as the man i bought them from has a good rep and a quality herd. i would buy more from him anytime.
i understand the traits talked about and do see how with a cross they would definitely be traits you would want in your herd.
i understand more of the desireability of them now. thanks to doc anyways....

there isnt anything wrong with them as far as im concerened(mine included) cuz i think black angus herds look great out on pasture. i just didnt understand how the breed came to be so much more popular than most having never had any before.

How does leggy, skinny, no butt, and always looking wormy = quality herd? Unless you bought his culls, then you got exactly that and culls hardly qualify as being on par with any Angus cow.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

angus dont actually excell in a florida climate either.

 

[dieselbeef]

never had any til recently. always had limos or brahmas and brafords now

why so popular? they seem leggy and skinney to me. my wife thinks they look like they got worms all the time. mine are red and so are the rest of my cows but they seem so small and skinney by comparison.

my brafords are thicker and rounder. and the limos have got sooo much more butt on em by far. arent these the real traits were looking for? i am

im sure this has been hashed to death already but when ya got em side by side its really noticeable. specially in a 8 mo old hiefer

Why did you buy some leggy, skinny, no butt cattle of any breed?

Doesn't make much sense to buy sorry cattle then complain about having sorry stock. Sell 'em and get some good stock.

wasnt complaining...just observing. was kinda just looking for some different perspectives on how or why they have become the ''cattle of choice''. i only make the comparison as they stand next to my other animals and im sure they are quality and on par with any angus cow as the man i bought them from has a good rep and a quality herd. i would buy more from him anytime.
i understand the traits talked about and do see how with a cross they would definitely be traits you would want in your herd.
i understand more of the desireability of them now. thanks to doc anyways....

there isnt anything wrong with them as far as im concerened(mine included) cuz i think black angus herds look great out on pasture. i just didnt understand how the breed came to be so much more popular than most having never had any before.

How does leggy, skinny, no butt, and always looking wormy = quality herd? Unless you bought his culls, then you got exactly that and culls hardly qualify as being on par with any Angus cow.

in comparison to a limo or a braford....they are. and they aint no culls. imo all angus look this way...

but i aint nobody.......am i?

 

[Tod Dague]

OK. ;-)

So what are you breeding them to?

 

[dieselbeef]

limo..

 

[DOC HARRIS]

in comparison to a limo or a braford....they are. and they aint no culls. imo all angus look this way...

but i aint nobody.......am i?

dieselbeef- Yes! You are SOMEBODY! You are a Beef Breeder who is interested enough in the Beef Industry AND your business to take an interest and learn some facts that others are not willing to take the time to learn. You are the kind of breeder that makes this business a viable interprise, and the more you can learn - the more confidence you have in yourself and your abilities. It takes Faith, Confidence and Belief in yourself and your abilities to make a success of any business, and you are on the cutting edge. You must continue to 'sharpen' your edges.

Keep up the efforts.

DOC HARRIS

 

[dieselbeef]

thanks Doc. i appreciate it.
i was just making some general observations and it turned into a bashing session.
thats okay ..cept when someones makin comments about somethin they havent seen.
anyways i got alot out of your response sir and thats what i was wanting to know.
im gonna breed em to my limo bull and see what kinda calfs i get....most likely ill be happy with em...

 

[3MR]

I think an angus limo cross is excellent. They make a great commercial herd in my opinion.

 

[moobelle]

thanks Doc. i appreciate it.
i was just making some general observations and it turned into a bashing session.
thats okay ..cept when someones makin comments about somethin they havent seen.
anyways i got alot out of your response sir and thats what i was wanting to know.
im gonna breed em to my limo bull and see what kinda calfs i get....most likely ill be happy with em...

Just an observation here: to be really happy with your half angus half limo calf crop, I'd suggest selling the cattle with the rear muscling you don't like, and buying angus cows with muscling that makes the grade and makes you happy.

Why try to breed up and waste time, money and effort, when there are so many great angus cows available to the commercial breeder today?

Buying GOOD cheap angus is one thing, quite an accomplishment if you can manage it, but buying cheap angus, or cheap any other breed, that is faulty and that you don't like, is just plain foolish (no flame, just experience talkin' here!)

My experience with Angus has been to breed the best to the best you can afford, and watch the carcass traits increase across your entire herd.

An angus limo cross is a great cross, ...for that matter, angus crossed to ANY OTHER BREED will improve many epd's and almost always deliver a better calf than the herd you started with, but if you're going to grow angus and play with angus crosses in your herd, you'll usually get what you pay for unless you're picking up a drought liquidation bargain somewhere.


Best of luck,

moobelle

Devoted Angus Enthusiast!

 

[cattleluvr18]

I think an angus limo cross is excellent. They make a great commercial herd in my opinion.

we have a few of them too in our herd. they are prolly the best lookin ones. alot better then a pb angus.

 

[Tod Dague]

limo..

Sounds good.

 

[Tod Dague]

thanks Doc. i appreciate it.
i was just making some general observations and it turned into a bashing session.
thats okay ..cept when someones makin comments about somethin they havent seen.
anyways i got alot out of your response sir and thats what i was wanting to know.
im gonna breed em to my limo bull and see what kinda calfs i get....most likely ill be happy with em...

If your talking about me, sorry. It was sounding to me that these cattle weren't doing it for you so I suggested you sell 'em and get some better stock. As for the rest of it, maybe it's a regional thing as the Brafords I see around here are typically leggy and skinny and the Angus are shorter and stockier and Limos on average will have more meat than Angus.

So just out of curiosity what do you like about your Angus?

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Doc or whoever,
is the fight for low BW and high YW actually causing a shrink in pelvics of angus females. I have heard that BW is becoming an issue due to the exaggerated fall towards low BW actual and epd numbers

 

[Aero]

and the limos have got sooo much more butt on em by far. arent these the real traits were looking for? i am

i look for early sexual maturity, good fertility/longevity, easy calving, a strong market for calves and carcass merit selling on the grid. i dount an extra 20 lbs of hindquarter will make up for those.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc or whoever,
is the fight for low BW and high YW actually causing a shrink in pelvics of angus females. I have heard that BW is becoming an issue due to the exaggerated fall towards low BW actual and epd numbers

To me, it seems logical that to continually breed any species concentrating on only one or two charactereistics causes a 'meltdown' of OTHER traits. Holstein cows are a good exmple. They have, naturally, been selecting for milk production for the entire history of the breed, and in the last 65 years or so their milk production has accelerated almost exponentially. Holstein breeders can give you a more specific and detailed explanation than I can, but you understand the principle, I am sure. By the same token, if breeder's continue to select for lower and lower birth weight, and higher and higher Yearling Weight, somewhere along that genetic line of "Like Begets Like" there will inevitably be a line of demarcation that dictates that the calf will be too big to be born in a natural manner. The same thought follows with higher and higher milk production - someday (and that day may be upon us as we speak!) there will be a penalty to pay for such outrageous milk EPD's, and our phenotype will lose Muscle development (Hindquarters = FUNNEL BUTTS!), cow-hocked, sickle-hocked, poor feet, weak pasterns, weak or broken down stifle(s)- - the entire subject boils down to a simple premise - one that uses common sense! You can't put 100 pounds in a 50 pound sack!

DOC HARRIS

 

[dieselbeef]

thanks Doc. i appreciate it.
i was just making some general observations and it turned into a bashing session.
thats okay ..cept when someones makin comments about somethin they havent seen.
anyways i got alot out of your response sir and thats what i was wanting to know.
im gonna breed em to my limo bull and see what kinda calfs i get....most likely ill be happy with em...

If your talking about me, sorry. It was sounding to me that these cattle weren't doing it for you so I suggested you sell 'em and get some better stock. As for the rest of it, maybe it's a regional thing as the Brafords I see around here are typically leggy and skinny and the Angus are shorter and stockier and Limos on average will have more meat than Angus.

So just out of curiosity what do you like about your Angus?



wanted to see what the hype is all about and try the cross with the limo...im gonna keep em and try it out. who knows i may like the calfs enough to get some more

this wasnt a raggin post fellas..just noticing the differences is all. i wasnt slammin angus at all. .


rattler help me out here a little buddy!

 

[ROCK-N-W]

They will come to breeding maturity early, but you wanna keepum away from that big butt bull of yours till they are 18-24 months old before breeding, Or those skinny butts and long legs might give you a problem & could cause you to lose cow and first calf at calving. It seams my angus usually double in size as they come to that 3 year old mark and catch right up with my beefmasters. But what great cows they make and I always do better on the angus calfs at market than my others and that's what it's all about. In your own words GEEEEZ MAN

 

[George Monk]

Oakcreek and Doc
I was watching an angus sale on RFD-TV and was amazed at the price offered for animals that I thought had terrible hind legs that appeared to be sickles! The same sale offered excellent looking stock that went for $1000 less. The real difference was the autioneer saying "a real heifer bull". I contend that the focus on BW is going to cause problems for the angus breed and commercial breeder who is buying these animals. BW has its place but in only about a 1/3 of any herd (replacement heifers). Yet the focus seems to be on BW. 100+lb calves can be a problem but generally a cow can handle that. I would be more concerned about the calf bein slow to get up then the cow birthing such a calf. I would suggest that most angus and angus sired calves are born from 75 to 95 lbs. NO cow I have would have difficulties with that calf. If we focus on BW there is no doubt in this poor slob's thoughts that the light muscled, funnel butt angus will continue.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Oakcreek and Doc
I was watching an angus sale on RFD-TV and was amazed at the price offered for animals that I thought had terrible hind legs that appeared to be sickles! The same sale offered excellent looking stock that went for $1000 less. The real difference was the autioneer saying "a real heifer bull". I contend that the focus on BW is going to cause problems for the angus breed and commercial breeder who is buying these animals. BW has its place but in only about a 1/3 of any herd (replacement heifers). Yet the focus seems to be on BW. 100+lb calves can be a problem but generally a cow can handle that. I would be more concerned about the calf bein slow to get up then the cow birthing such a calf. I would suggest that most angus and angus sired calves are born from 75 to 95 lbs. NO cow I have would have difficulties with that calf. If we focus on BW there is no doubt in this poor slob's thoughts that the light muscled, funnel butt angus will continue.

I agree with you George, but in the minds of some of the more opinionated breeders on these threads, it make no difference what the Phenotype of an animal is, just so long as it is Black and can trace it's pedigree back to Angus. I am and always have been a great supporter of the Angus Breed, BUT with the understanding that they have well-balanced Phenotype, Good Muscle development, and calve reasonably easily, raising a good healthy calf EVERY YEAR OF THEIR LIVES! The direction that SOME of the Angus lines are taking, it will become difficult to do common sense genetic selection for a specific purpose. The lines of demarcation between Terminal Angus and Heifer Replacement/Reproductive Angus are becoming obscure and blurred because some of the breeders are attempting to produce an Angus animal that will Be All and Do All! I suggest that they should capitalize on their strengths and be the best that they can be.

DOC HARRIS