Why a cross breed Bull

[alftn]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

 

[Aaron]

We began using a 1/2 Gelbvieh, 3/8 RA, 1/16 Herf, 1/16 Simm bull last year. I picked his sire out for my uncle 11 years ago at a bull test and they just sold him last spring.

14 of the this crossbred bulls' brothers (steers) sold in a lot a couple of years ago for $1.10, averaging 1050 lbs. Needless to say there are some genetics in this bull that the buyers like. Lots of growth and muscle with a bit of flare to catch your eye...just what we need to sell some good packages of steers.

We arn't keeping any of this bulls offspring, and we wouldn't use a crossbred bull for a maternal sire.

Here is a picture of the bull at 5 months of age.

To answer your question, the main reason we are using a crossbred bull is because it is much cheaper to do so. No reason to buy a purebred bull if all you want is terminal calves to sell. You do have to make sure you know what your buying, however. We want a crossbred bull that will maintain all of the the good qualities in our stocker calves and add a lot more, such as growth and muscle.

 

[angus9259]

I used a cross bred bull because it was cheaper. Bought bulls from "the guy down the street". Just paid the price later in calves though. Bad choice on my part. I had to switch to a registered bull from a bonafide bull producer because I couldn't find a crossbred bull. Paid an extra $800 for the bull and was ticked about it. The bull added 50 lbs of wean weight to each calf and dropped my calving problems to near zero . . . even on heifers. The payback was less than one season.

That said, just because a bull is NOT crossbred doesn't mean it should be breeding your cows. Talk to whoever is supplying the bull and ask questions about how much they've been paying attention to genetics over the history of their herd - whether F1 or purebred - and why they're offering this particular bull as a bull. People who know what they're doing, know what they are doing (whether crossbred or purebred). Just remember the lesson I've learned over and over and over and over and over again . . . cheaper is not always cheaper.

 

[brandonm_13]

Just remember cattle like Brangus, Beefmaster, and Santa Gertrudis fit in as crossbred(or at least used to be). People consider them purebred now, but when they started, someone was using a crossbred Angus x Brahman.

 

[bandit80]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

Why might I ask do you think an F-2 cross is so horrible??

I own three bulls. 2 Balancers, 1 purebred Gelbvieh. The Balancers predominately breed my balancer cows, and the gelbvieh will breed my predominately british cows, which are mostly angus. The two balancers are F-1's, but I would have no reservations about using an F-2 cross.

The reason I use an F-1 or F-2 for that matter on my cows is simple. I like my cows to be crossbred for many reasons, and I want to maintain the 50/50 genetic makeup of Gelbvieh and Angus in my cow herd. Only way to do that is to breed your F-1's to an F-1, or F-2. I retain all my own females, and also market bulls through a regional group.

Edit: The Gelbvieh Association also allows you to register animals such as F-1s and F-2s, and can generate EPDs for them.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

Why might I ask do you think an F-2 cross is so horrible??

I own three bulls. 2 Balancers, 1 purebred Gelbvieh. The Balancers predominately breed my balancer cows, and the gelbvieh will breed my predominately british cows, which are mostly angus. The two balancers are F-1's, but I would have no reservations about using an F-2 cross.

The reason I use an F-1 or F-2 for that matter on my cows is simple. I like my cows to be crossbred for many reasons, and I want to maintain the 50/50 genetic makeup of Gelbvieh and Angus in my cow herd. Only way to do that is to breed your F-1's to an F-1, or F-2. I retain all my own females, and also market bulls through a regional group.

Edit: The Gelbvieh Association also allows you to register animals such as F-1s and F-2s, and can generate EPDs for them.

in your program F2'S probably work great because of the.. same breed makeup... but a F1 bull on a some commercial herds is a genetic free for all

 

[bandit80]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

Why might I ask do you think an F-2 cross is so horrible??

I own three bulls. 2 Balancers, 1 purebred Gelbvieh. The Balancers predominately breed my balancer cows, and the gelbvieh will breed my predominately british cows, which are mostly angus. The two balancers are F-1's, but I would have no reservations about using an F-2 cross.

The reason I use an F-1 or F-2 for that matter on my cows is simple. I like my cows to be crossbred for many reasons, and I want to maintain the 50/50 genetic makeup of Gelbvieh and Angus in my cow herd. Only way to do that is to breed your F-1's to an F-1, or F-2. I retain all my own females, and also market bulls through a regional group.

Edit: The Gelbvieh Association also allows you to register animals such as F-1s and F-2s, and can generate EPDs for them.

in your program F2'S probably work great because of the.. same breed makeup... but a F1 bull on a some commercial herds is a genetic free for all

agreed

 

[Australian Cattleman]

We use 3/4 Brahman 1/4 South Devon bulls over heifers of the following breeds pure SDs,Pure Brahmans and South Brahvons and straight Herefords and Black Baldys. We find that we get attributes of both of these breeds.It never ceases to amaze us that supposed cattle breeders still opt for that cheap bull. The beef industry here in Australia and probably the US and Canada, gives no price incentive for those that put some thought into the quality of the bulls that are used.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

We use 3/4 Brahman 1/4 South Devon bulls over heifers of the following breeds pure SDs,Pure Brahmans and South Brahvons and straight Herefords and Black Baldys. We find that we get attributes of both of these breeds.It never ceases to amaze us that supposed cattle breeders still opt for that cheap bull. The beef industry here in Australia and probably the US and Canada, gives no price incentive for those that put some thought into the quality of the bulls that are used.

now your talking.. you got your breed percentages > dead on

 

[MikeC]

Have heard a lot of complaints that crossbred bulls don't breed true and the calves hit the ground with several mixed traits. (color, muscularity, etc.) Especially on crossbred cows.

I think a consistant calf crop is worth quite a bit when showing calves to buyers.

Reject that! I KNOW it is...............

 

[DOC HARRIS]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

I have started three times to comment on this thread, wrote a few sentences, read them, and deleted them, deciding to not throw gasoline on a smoldering fire - CROSSBREEDING!

But - this is the fourth attempt to answer the pessimism that seems to surround the practice of Crossbreeding and the use of Composites in the beef cattle breeding businesss, and I have resigned myself to the fact that some people will NEVER understand the science behind the intelligent use of crossbreeding - for the same excuse, I suppose, that they don't "believe" in EPD's! There are thousands of articles and hundreds of thousands of words verifying the legitimacy of the utilization of the science of crossbreeding! I feel it is a waste of time to sit here at this computer and duplicate the scientific and factual information and details surrounding the practice of "Crossbreeding" beef cattle when there are more informative articles and legitimate subject matter pertaining to "Crossbreeding" than any one person can itemize in a month of Sunday's - IF - they are interested enough and industrious enough to take the effort to "SEARCH THE INTERNET!" HELLO! Is anybody listening??

Try this:

http://www.leachman.com

And hundeds of others!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Aero]

For commercial herds who have a plan and have stuck to it over the years, there is probably less usefulness in an F1 bull. For the herds who have used a different breed every year and changed types like the wind (and presumptively retained females), an F1 bull program might be what is needed.

the common method of crossbreeding is to rotate a set number (2 or 3) of breeds through the sire lineup. This is good over time but inherently results in retained females of different breed makeups but usually makes for a pretty consistent group after some years.

using a crossbred bull for the first time on a mixed up herd will not get you any better results than if you just chose another breed of bull... but: the next year you choose another (unrelated) crossbred bull of the same breed makeup. Repeat annually until you have a stabilized group and then start rotating purebred bulls of the same makeup as the crossbred bull.

the whole reason to use F1 bulls is to stabilize a group because you can use the same breed makeup without losing a significant amount of heterosis. If I remember correctly, I read that using the same F1 cross for 4 consecutive years and retaining all females showed a 79% retention of heterosis as compared to the first year using an F1 bull. after retaining some females for 4 years, you should have a pretty consistent group of cows to go into a normal rotation of the purebred bulls that made the F1 bulls.

Do yourself a favor; choose breeds and stick to it for a reasonable amount of time. NOTE: 1 breeding season is not a reasonable amount of time. 5+ years is.

 

[Frankie]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

Bradley3's branded beef used to prefer feeders that were 3/4 Angus X 1/4 Continental for their program. If you were working toward that program, it always seemed more practical to me to have Angus cattle and run an Angus X Continental bull simply from a cow size point since Continental cows tend to be larger than Angus cattle. But research that I've read suggests that the cow benefits from heterosis more than a bull. There's tons of research available on the benefits of a planned program of crossbreeding on the cow herd. Longeivity, pounds weaned, fertility, etc. I don't know of any actual research done on the benefits of using a crossbred bull. Has anyone seen any research from universities, as opposed to the breed associations/organizations that are pushing composite bulls? If so, I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

How many of you have use a mixed bull on you cows? Talking about F-1 or worse yet a f-2 cross.. If so why?

Bradley3's branded beef used to prefer feeders that were 3/4 Angus X 1/4 Continental for their program. If you were working toward that program, it always seemed more practical to me to have Angus cattle and run an Angus X Continental bull simply from a cow size point since Continental cows tend to be larger than Angus cattle. But research that I've read suggests that the cow benefits from heterosis more than a bull. There's tons of research available on the benefits of a planned program of crossbreeding on the cow herd. Longeivity, pounds weaned, fertility, etc. I don't know of any actual research done on the benefits of using a crossbred bull. Has anyone seen any research from universities, as opposed to the breed associations/organizations that are pushing composite bulls? If so, I'd be interested in reading it.

Frankie-

Do a "SEARCH" on 'Dogpile' or Google. If Universities have done it - they will find it! Lee Leachman has probably more facts and figures than any University, or even MARC, on the thousands of head they have kept records on, particularly "Feed Efficiency".

AGAIN, I refer you to http://www.leachman.com. Read all of it, and play the video. Click on "LCoC Philosophies" in the left pane of index boxes. Then click on the "Profit Strategies" section in the RIGHT pane. You can believe it - or - not. It is your option.

DOC HARRIS

 

[alftn]

I can see using a F-1 bull on a uniform cow herd. But F-2 , I question the out come.. In the case of balancers, ie.3/8 -5/8 I see but think it takes alot of breeding befor it is fixed..(genotype, penotype)

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I can see using a F-1 bull on a uniform cow herd. But F-2 , I question the out come.. In the case of balancers, ie.3/8 -5/8 I see but think it takes alot of breeding befor it is fixed..(genotype, penotype)

alftn-

You are right, but I think that you are missing the point here. In the extensive breeding and multiple crossbreeding that Leachman has done in the last 35+ years, the established Genotype, Phenotype and Functional Trait characteristics have ALREADY been fixed! This is why they select, with EVERY MATING, the optimal genetics with which to determine their specific matings.

I sound like I am working for Leachman! I am not. I don't have a dog in this fight, except I want breeders to understand the tremendous amount of thought and breeding and selecting that has been done toPROVE that this different type of breeding really works - IF, and this is a great big IF, the breeder uses the best selection genetics available. THAT is the big secret. And, in the work that I have done with many breeders, I see that the majority of them don't understand the necessity of heavy, concentrated selection protocols. It goes right over their heads! They do pretty well on the first matings that they do, and - - then . . .it sort of slides off - into the sunset, and the next breeding they lurch right back into the ". . .any good bull will do . . .okay . . I guess" . . . . . .and then it's "See, it really doesn't work".

It's bull puckey. They fall right back into just average, not very good breeding stock, and then to cover their own mistakes, they blame everything but themselves - their lousy cows - the neighbor's bull - the weather - or - or - or.

Some will even say, "If it was good enough for my daddy, it is good enough for me!" If that is the case, let's just close all of the Universities, Experiment Stations, the extensive development work that hundreds of breeders are doing - and just breed scrubs - cheaply. What difference does any of our efforts make anyway?? Just borrow "cow-freshener bulls", and save money.

Don't question the outcome. Just investigate the proof! They are not making it up. I live 12 miles from Leachman and I have seen what they do and how they do it! On thousands of head of breeding stock!

But - - - -maybe it doesn't work after all! :???: Who knows? :dunce:

Doc Harris
Doc

 

[Boss Cowman]

Thank You Doc!