This year I have started in the cow business, and it has been a blast. I want to thank everyone on this board for writing so many interesting posts where I have learned volumes about the cattle business. I have basically a commercial heard with about 25% of my heard being a pure bread angus operation and I have selected N Bar Prime Time as my AI bull for this year. He seem to have some really good maternal EPD's which would fit in my program because I really want some good heifers to grow my heard. He also has some decent marbling numbers so maybe he will fit good with my heard. My question is kind of two fold. Which AI bull do you select for your heard and why, and how long does it take to produce a good quality Heifer from AI breeding. Also please let me know what you guys look for when you are culling your keeper heifers. God Bless and have a great New Year.
Which AI bull do you use and why?
- Thread starter ddg1263
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ddg1263":2rn2uv1e said:
Please don't be offended, but a group of cows is a herd, not heard. And they're pure bred, not pure bread.
Now that I've nitpicked...
We have a small registered Angus herd and have had for about 20 years. Our cows are where we want them to be. Angus cattle, in general, are a maternal breed. If you don't select for extremes, most Angus bulls will give you a good cow. But most smaller breeders make their living selling bulls to commercial cattlemen, not females. This spring we'll have calves sired by Strategy, Foresight and Lead On. I think they're all ABS bulls. We performance test our bulls, so we're looking for bulls that we think will do well on test. That helps sell them. We use proven bulls because we believe we'll have fewer sorry animals with those proven bulls.
We keep most every heifer until she's bred, has that first calf at side or goes to the sale barn. If one is a non-breeder, I want to know it before a customer starts telling the world about that sorry heifer he bought from us. It takes one breeding (AI) or otherwise to get a good heifer.....if the cow and bull are good animals. If either one isn't, you may never get a heifer you're happy with. When we started with the Angus, we tried to do it on the cheap. We bought cheap heifers/cows and AI-ed them to what we thought were the best bulls in the breed. It didn't take long to realize we would have been better off to buy fewer, higher quality cows/heifers instead.
I don't know what bulls we'll be using this spring. We've got several heifers to breed and will use the rest of our New Design 036 semen in a couple of those. We'll probably put Midland in a tall Krugerrand 490 heifer. And we'll get a look at these Lead On calves; we may use more of him. Also, for the first time in a very long time we're going to use a clean up bull.
My advice to you is to know where you plan to sell your registered cattle. You don't say where you are, but in this part of the country, commercial cattlemen want a bull with some leg under him. They'll almost always pick the tallest bull on the place if we're selling from home. At the test station, they go for the highest performance numbers....usually.
If you're planning to sell show heifers, you'll need to pay attention to what's winning in the show ring. That's an entirely different business, IMO, than performance breeding.
Frankie what a goofball I am. I was so into the game that I just quickly typed out my post. Thank you for correcting me!
As far as my pure bred herd, I do not have a formal marketing program for it yet. I have looked at several programs and to me it looks like you have had to have been in the business for ages or throw a ton of money in your herd to be able to market them appropriately. I have come to the conclusion that I do not need to get into that race just yet. I do not have the name or the money. Instead, I will build my pure bred herd slowly, but I will not sell any bulls. I will focus on trying to grow my herd to a size where I can sell load beef lots. And perhaps by then I will have developed a decent name in the cattle business to sell quality bulls to commercial breeders.
But what has been fascinating to me is pouring over the many different bulls available to use. Some of those animals are really just superb. I think the next year I am going to score each cow and breed them to a wide range of bulls. However this year I just went with N Bar Prime Time. But it is just as fascinating to me to hear what the market actually wants. Thank you Frankie for your advice! Game started :cboy:
As far as my pure bred herd, I do not have a formal marketing program for it yet. I have looked at several programs and to me it looks like you have had to have been in the business for ages or throw a ton of money in your herd to be able to market them appropriately. I have come to the conclusion that I do not need to get into that race just yet. I do not have the name or the money. Instead, I will build my pure bred herd slowly, but I will not sell any bulls. I will focus on trying to grow my herd to a size where I can sell load beef lots. And perhaps by then I will have developed a decent name in the cattle business to sell quality bulls to commercial breeders.
But what has been fascinating to me is pouring over the many different bulls available to use. Some of those animals are really just superb. I think the next year I am going to score each cow and breed them to a wide range of bulls. However this year I just went with N Bar Prime Time. But it is just as fascinating to me to hear what the market actually wants. Thank you Frankie for your advice! Game started :cboy:
Boldcat
Well-known member
I only AI my best cows for replacement heifers so I mainly look at maternal traits and gain , plus I like what ABS calls GTS summary . Genex calls it something else. I look at foot angle , udder stucture, teat size , ect.
My semen salesman sees alot of calves from different bulls and I listen to his advice as well since he has a very nice herd himself.
Some RA bulls I've used are Chateau , Romeo , Cub.Nice hiefers when crossed to simmis.
Last couple of years I've used Simmi bulls Trademark, Shear Force , 3C-pasque and Big sky.
I'm very impressed with Shear force . I also Ai'ed some heifers to Winchester last year.
My semen salesman sees alot of calves from different bulls and I listen to his advice as well since he has a very nice herd himself.
Some RA bulls I've used are Chateau , Romeo , Cub.Nice hiefers when crossed to simmis.
Last couple of years I've used Simmi bulls Trademark, Shear Force , 3C-pasque and Big sky.
I'm very impressed with Shear force . I also Ai'ed some heifers to Winchester last year.
Which AI bull do you select for your heard and why, and how long does it take to produce a good quality Heifer from AI breeding.
The art of matching breedings takes some time, but rule of thumb is that you try to find a bull that compliments the cow you are breeding-- for example: If your cow lacks in correct structure or udder attachment or milking ability or growth or Frame score etc... you try to find a Bull that will help compliment that situation. Another example: I have Simm cows too -- we have a few simm cows that have too much frame-- so what we try to do is cut that frame down on their offspring by using bulls with a frame score of 5.7 or lower, without taking away from confirmation or WW or YW or Marb or MM etc etc.
Bulls we use for AI (sexed semen) for producing quality heifers--- we choose based on several factors--- Calving ease, Birth weight, WW, YW, to a lesser degree MM because both Angus and Simm have ample MM. We look at the (MGS) Maternal Grand Sire for further information.
As far as heifers go we cull 3 times before a heifer+ makes it into our A cow herd.
1. We cull at weaning looking for structural correctness, disposition, WDA and overall phenotype (Any heifer that doesn't meet Average Simm or Angus WDA is culled, unless she is out of a first calf Heifer)
2. We cull again at 12 - 15 months pre-breeding -- again on structural correctness, disposition,WDA, pelvic measurements, FS and overall phenotype. Heifers are put on grazing to gain about 1.5 to 2.0 lbs per day depending on breed (Angus/ Simms) from weaning to breeding --any that fall behind are culled.
3. We cull again at 24 months for any heifer that was assisted in a normal calving or fails to breed back on time after her first calf.
Heifers are bred AI > 30 days before the main cow herd to help them get on track for a normal breeding schedule in the future.
This is a business and it is run like a business and if these cattle don't perform they are history.
At the end of the day --all cows calve in a 84 day period,including heifers Cows all wean calves at least 50% of their body weight post-calving and breed back on time.
The art of matching breedings takes some time, but rule of thumb is that you try to find a bull that compliments the cow you are breeding-- for example: If your cow lacks in correct structure or udder attachment or milking ability or growth or Frame score etc... you try to find a Bull that will help compliment that situation. Another example: I have Simm cows too -- we have a few simm cows that have too much frame-- so what we try to do is cut that frame down on their offspring by using bulls with a frame score of 5.7 or lower, without taking away from confirmation or WW or YW or Marb or MM etc etc.
Bulls we use for AI (sexed semen) for producing quality heifers--- we choose based on several factors--- Calving ease, Birth weight, WW, YW, to a lesser degree MM because both Angus and Simm have ample MM. We look at the (MGS) Maternal Grand Sire for further information.
As far as heifers go we cull 3 times before a heifer+ makes it into our A cow herd.
1. We cull at weaning looking for structural correctness, disposition, WDA and overall phenotype (Any heifer that doesn't meet Average Simm or Angus WDA is culled, unless she is out of a first calf Heifer)
2. We cull again at 12 - 15 months pre-breeding -- again on structural correctness, disposition,WDA, pelvic measurements, FS and overall phenotype. Heifers are put on grazing to gain about 1.5 to 2.0 lbs per day depending on breed (Angus/ Simms) from weaning to breeding --any that fall behind are culled.
3. We cull again at 24 months for any heifer that was assisted in a normal calving or fails to breed back on time after her first calf.
Heifers are bred AI > 30 days before the main cow herd to help them get on track for a normal breeding schedule in the future.
This is a business and it is run like a business and if these cattle don't perform they are history.
At the end of the day --all cows calve in a 84 day period,including heifers Cows all wean calves at least 50% of their body weight post-calving and breed back on time.
ddg1263":2g90bcbp said:Frankie what a goofball I am. I was so into the game that I just quickly typed out my post. Thank you for correcting me!
As far as my pure bred herd, I do not have a formal marketing program for it yet. I have looked at several programs and to me it looks like you have had to have been in the business for ages or throw a ton of money in your herd to be able to market them appropriately. I have come to the conclusion that I do not need to get into that race just yet. I do not have the name or the money. Instead, I will build my pure bred herd slowly, but I will not sell any bulls. I will focus on trying to grow my herd to a size where I can sell load beef lots. And perhaps by then I will have developed a decent name in the cattle business to sell quality bulls to commercial breeders.
But what has been fascinating to me is pouring over the many different bulls available to use. Some of those animals are really just superb. I think the next year I am going to score each cow and breed them to a wide range of bulls. However this year I just went with N Bar Prime Time. But it is just as fascinating to me to hear what the market actually wants. Thank you Frankie for your advice! Game started :cboy:
Not a goofball. But if you want to be taken seriously, you must present yourself seriously...and have some fun.
Raising Angus cattle is fun and it can be profitable. It's changed a lot since we first started. Enjoy your cattle, learn, attend some sales this spring and see what sells for how much and what doesn't sell for as much. Sooner or later you'll want to get paid for your hard work and it's no harder work to raise quality animals. Take care.....
Willow Springs
Well-known member
I think that N Bar Prime Time is an excellent bull to use if you want easy calving on heifers or top quality replacement females. He is a really small bull though (by conventional standards); only a frame score 4; so don't expect great big calves. His growth numbers are somewhat below breed averages, but that is because he is a smaller bull. The daughters will also be smaller, but have excellent udders and teats. I don't think you can go worng on the female side.
jkwilson
Well-known member
Using the same bull to AI a whole herd defeats one of the best benefits of AI. You want to pick the best bull for each cow.
Willow Springs
Well-known member
Using a different bull on almost every cow gives you too much variability in type and pedigree. The herd and calves will have very little consistency; tough to sell nice big groups of calve that way. Also how do you know which bulls are actually the best; numbers can tell you a bit, but a picture in a catalogue doesn't usually give you a true measure of the bull. I like to pick a bull and breed him to at least 20 cows that I think match up with him. then i know what I have got.
jkwilson and willow springs I agree with both of you compeatly, it depends on the end result your looking for. We do both here, muche of our reg herd if bred AI to several different bulls to diversify the genetics available from us and to compensate for extremes. Our commercial herd is bred AI to one bull so we can get the most consistant calf crop possible. Keep in mind we strive to keep a consistant cow throught both herds.
You'll get better results if you pick your A.I. bull based on the cow rather than use one bull for the whole herd. Sire catalogs have tons of info about the different bulls that you can use to match up with your cows. What I try to do is look at the faults in the cow and choose a sire that has a chance of correcting those faults.
I have used Genex for A.I. in the past, and have really liked their bulls.
Good luck!
I have used Genex for A.I. in the past, and have really liked their bulls.
Good luck!
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Some one who is just starting out and getting into AI can sink alot of money in semen Better to use a couple of good bulls each year for a few years trying to use different bulls each year. After a few years you will begin to have a semen inventory built up.
