which 4 heifers to keep?

[backhoeboogie]

How are their mothers? How are their sisters doing in the herd (if you already added some).

I have had some lookers come from cows I wasn't all that fond of. The cow is only half of it indeed but the other calves also have the good half.

 

[AllForage]

In the past, it seems that many Forum members are not interested in being assisted in learning technics and philosophies in regard to beef cattle selection, and the reasons for focusing on certain traits and characteristics in their evaluation and choices of replacement seedstock. That is their option, their right, and is at their descretion. The undeniable fact of the importance of making correct selection decisions is - it takes a LONG TIME to correct and overcome even a slight error in concentrating and focusing on inappropriate or even detrimental genetic traits or characteristics when retaining seedstock heifers.

That said, my philosophy of seedstock selection incorporates a concentrated focus of attention on BALANCING characteristics and traits concerned with PROFIT! "Single Trait Selection" methods of improving one's seedstock choices is not is NOT concentrating on Profit.

Nesikep, your culling priorities ( grief, bad hooves, udders, attitudes and LARGE size ) are functional traits, which are of extreme importance, but not primary considerations when,balancing phenotype, genotype and functional traits. The Basic EPD's (BW, WW, YW, Milk, IMF, REA) should ALWAYS be considered. THEN the functional traits follow the visual decisions and genetic factors involved. Your decision making insofar as your current protocols are concerned seem to be in line with your goals. My only question is - are your goals in line with profit - or comfort?

Just something to think about.

DOC HARRIS

I will have to respectfully disagree in your order of importance. First, Nesikep needs to have an ideal animal in his head that he is selecting towards (after some pm's in the past, I do not know if he has one yet). Then begin to select visually towards that ideal while considering his important traits to him. While taking in animal size, form, and performance in the real world he could consider epd's if they matter to him. We just had another fellow here on a thread mention how a bull looked "Great" on paper through epd's, but he did not turn out. Breeding by numbers and statistics don't mean a hill of beans if they are not trending towards your ideal or if they do not perform. If an animals gives him grief then he should ship it if that is important to him. Bad attitude is one single trait to select against.

I will not argue if some folks take advice or not, but you must have an ideal and market goal. If form follows function then get a pic of 5 bulls with identical epd's. Tell me if they are all cookie cutters of each other.

Bring the height of your animals down a touch and some of those things will fix themselves.

 

[Nesikep]

I think when many people are talking of selecting for a single trait, it (usually) means that trait takes maximum priority, however, the animal should be acceptable in the others as well.

I think a poor example would be the Holstein dairy industry... cows producing 150 lbs of milk a day, but only living 4ish years... I guess some bean counters say that's the efficient way of doing it.

Another one would be the Belgian blues... sure, they may have meat, but in my opinion they are *UGLY*

One reason I select for ease-of-handling is that my parents are not going to be in any shape to chase cows in a couple years, and as of right now, I'm single and running this place alone, I'm going to have plenty on my plate. One saving grace is I just got myself a mechanical horse, and old Honda XR100... small bike, and I can make it go any place a cow can go.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

AllForage-

"The Basic EPD's (BW, WW, YW, Milk, IMF, REA) should ALWAYS be considered. THEN the functional traits follow the visual decisions and genetic factors involved."

If you will peruse my post above, you will discover that the fundamental "order" of importance may be skewed - in your opinion, - but the quote does place them in order of considerable qualitative importance. The capitalized word "THEN", and "follow", designates that visual appraisal and EPD's precede functional considerations.

Not to further confuse the issue, but other considerations are of prime importance as well, such as "Qualitative and Quantitative" traits, Accuracies, and the possible variances of all traits. And now, cattle evaluation and EPD's have finally evolved to include the use of DNA as the most accurate, dependable information to predict the actual merit for quality and production of an individual. They are known as and referred to as genomic-enhanced, or GE-EPDs. In this thread we have exceeded the pragmatic considerations of Nesikep's original premise, but the facts and the science is there - nevertheless.

If breeders would be as "picky" in their selection protocols and decisions as some are in critiquing posts, I believe that the Beef Industry would benefit incrementally.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Nesikep]

hahah, good one Doc (about critiquing posts especially)

I guess in an ideal world you'd start out with the perfect cow and wouldn't have to go anywhere

But I think the perfect cow is as common as the perfect woman lol


On another note, I was looking at 2R's mother's current calf (2R was the "chairman of the board" nicknamed calf of 2 years ago), which is a steer born 2 weeks into the season, and he's not growing as well as hoped... 11T is at least the same weight, but 6 weeks younger and a heifer, and 25 lbs lighter at birth to boot

 

[Scroote]

AllForage-

"The Basic EPD's (BW, WW, YW, Milk, IMF, REA) should ALWAYS be considered. THEN the functional traits follow the visual decisions and genetic factors involved."

If you will peruse my post above, you will discover that the fundamental "order" of importance may be skewed - in your opinion, - but the quote does place them in order of considerable qualitative importance. The capitalized word "THEN", and "follow", designates that visual appraisal and EPD's precede functional considerations.

Not to further confuse the issue, but other considerations are of prime importance as well, such as "Qualitative and Quantitative" traits, Accuracies, and the possible variances of all traits. And now, cattle evaluation and EPD's have finally evolved to include the use of DNA as the most accurate, dependable information to predict the actual merit for quality and production of an individual. They are known as and referred to as genomic-enhanced, or GE-EPDs. In this thread we have exceeded the pragmatic considerations of Nesikep's original premise, but the facts and the science is there - nevertheless.

If breeders would be as "picky" in their selection protocols and decisions as some are in critiquing posts, I believe that the Beef Industry would benefit incrementally.

DOC HARRIS

Doc,

I would love to see your pickiness on display, please post some your animals and bulls that you have bred. I would enjoy seeing how you how put your little stamp on the beef industry. I would hate to find out that your cattle career was spent behind a desk.

I would take all of these cattleman's critique all day long before I gave a "all hat no cows" guy any time.

 

[3waycross]

Scroote keep in mind that of all the racehorse trainers I ever knew, most had never bred a racehorse. But they sure knew how to make one run.

Doc is a pretty knowledgable fella even if he speaks a different language that the rest of us.

 

[KNERSIE]

Vic, pay the little shitestirrer no attention and he'll soon disappear again.

 

[Scroote]

Vic, pay the little shitestirrer no attention and he'll soon disappear again.

a lot of people are hoping you will as well!

 

[KNERSIE]

In the meantime I'll hold my breath for you to make a sensible contribution to ANY thread...

 

[Scroote]

Scroote keep in mind that of all the racehorse trainers I ever knew, most had never bred a racehorse. But they sure knew how to make one run.

Doc is a pretty knowledgable fella even if he speaks a different language that the rest of us.

language of bs academia. never had to pay a feed bill or care for calves in mud or snow. never stepped out on a limb, just went with the herd. creating numbers to make themselves important. not saying he does not have anything to add just get off the high horse.

 

[2/B or not 2/B]

First, thank you Doc, Knersie, Dun and everyone of you who goes out of your way to provide thoughtful feedback to those of us who ask for it.

2B look at 11T in newer picture she does not look tight hearted at all

VCC, you are right. At first I was looking at photos that were partially cut off and then I went to the ones on another site but I think some of them were older.

Nesikep, you raised a fine group of heifers and yes the management is challenging. In the future, I'd like to AI and keep our herd bull for clean up. I think we could end up keeping him longer that way. The one we have now is just so docile and easy to keep. Makes it harder making a switch. That leads to Doc's question:

My only question is - are your goals in line with profit - or comfort?
DOC HARRIS

It's a valid question and both goals are valid to me too. We don't have the space to raise these cattle for a living, but we still want to do a good job, make money and raise quality animals. Comfort (including safety) tips the scales though. We have other jobs and don't want to doctor feet if we don't have to. We culled out the bad udders and haven't had to tube or bottle feed since. When the two of us work cows, I operate the chute and vaccinate. Don't like it when my arm is in there and a cow gets jumpy. Definitely thought of Kenny Thomas yesterday and watched every move. I guess if I had to choose one it would be comfort :hide:

 

[backhoeboogie]

The Basic EPD's (BW, WW, YW, Milk, IMF, REA) should ALWAYS be considered. profit - or comfort?

EPDs don't tell you that the bull was a long haired wooly mamoth. LOL my neighbor two places over had AI calves that have more hair than Cousin It.

Careful which climate the donor is out of.

 

[Nesikep]

That's a whole other thing is the fur... we range in temps from -25C to +40C (-15F to 105F) and don't always have shelter for either extreme... we need the woolly mammoths in the winter and slick fur in the summer... we haven't had any problems with either extreme.

Speaking of woolly Mammoths (11T's maternal sister), and this pic is from the beginning of october (2008)

I always enjoy everyone's opinion, as judging calves is actually much harder than judging mature animals... I may not agree on all aspects.. (I also have more historical information) I was told that due to the length of 11T's cannonbone, she'd grow up to be a very large cow, which I am very doubtful of, frame 6 at most, her mother is one of the smallest cows we have, and she's smaller than most herefords. 4T on the other hand is already the longest legged calf, and her mother is about a frame 7, which should be about what she will mature out at... personally I like about a frame 5 or 6, but more important than height is width... I'm a big fan of maternal calving ease, and most any adult cow of ours can handle a 130 lb calf if need be, and the first timers can usually do 100 lbs without any problem. Next in line is the calf finding the teats, and then there has to be milk in them!

Meanwhile I have *finally* finished my calving season... a cow we figured was open and was going to be shipped on monday, decided to calf on thursday... nice 80 lb bull calf... so now she'll have to go in springtime.. ah well, at least we have hay

 

[Nesikep]

As I've attended the last 3 years of calf sales, (this goes for whoever says "what pays in your area"), we've fetched the top 5% of prices in our weight range for the sale we attended... I didn't make it the this last sale in time to take a lot of notes on what other calves went for (blew the clutch in my truck on the way). What I can say is that the buyers seem to like our calves, and for the first time ever, we got over $1000 for each of our heavy steers. The heaviest steer I kept back, and he has the best frame, so he might have even fetched 1100

Meanwhile, the cow that just calved was sold as well, we didn't get what we hoped for her at $1085

 

[Nesikep]

Well, thought I'd update you all on the 4 heifers

All are doing well and raising good calves. they've had 2 calves each now, all steers except Chroma that had 2 heifers. I'm happy with all of them and unless they screw up they'll be around here a long time.
1T (Volta) is going to become a very good producer, and I think I might keep heifers from her
6T (Ceres) is nice, raising some good, stocky bulls so far..
8T (Chroma) is a bit a smaller, lighter cow, raised 2 heifers, the first was a little light to keep as a replacement but built very nicely, the one from this year is a spitting image of her mother and is being kept.. I want to reduce the size of my average cow a bit, and these will do nicely.
11T (Cenci) is a meat wagon, stocky and strong. Raised 2 very nice steers, kept her first one for freezer beef and he's looking tasty and tender, she lost some condition raising her calf this year, but has regained it quickly

Here's Chroma's calf Tifa.. perhaps you see the resemblence?


Chroma and Tifa


Cenci and Lester.. he has a funny looking head.. I can't put my finger on why. Can see she's a little skinny there too