Where's the dwarf gene come from?

[DOC HARRIS]

Dwarfism is a classic mendellian trait and it is due to a recessive gene. If you have an actual genetic dwarf, then you know conclusively that BOTH the cow and the bull carry that dwarfism gene. Only one out of four calves from that mating ON AVERAGE will actually be born a dwarf. (Given some of my luck the next four in a row would be). The bad news is that half of the calves from that mating WILL be dwarf gene carriers. Half of that bull's daughters should carry the dwarf gene and half of that cow's daughters should carry the dwarf gene. Since right now (if that dink WAS a true dwarf) you are multiplying the dwarf gene throughout your herd, I would immediately sell that bull, stop raising my own bulls, and go buy a bull from an outside herd......preferably from one that does not have a known dwarfism carrier anywhere in the last 5 generations) and that probably needs to be your policy with THAT cow family and heifers sired by that bull from NOW ON.

Brandonm2 - You are correct! I think that a little clarification is due at this point.

Dwarf and Midget are two different individual animals.

A dwarf refers to any individual (human or animal) that is considerably smaller than the average for the species and sometimes implies malformation or disproportion of parts; midget refers to a NORMALLY formed and proportioned, but diminutive human being.

DOC HARRIS

 

[BAGTIC]

From a newbie greenhorn that raises miniatures.

Was he a 'dwarf' or just a very small 'miniature' animal.? Was he well proportioned or did he have abnormally short for his size legs? Did he have a big head?

'Dwarfism' is most common in the Dexter breed but the other breed in which it has traditionally been known to occur is Angus. There is a genetic test that can spot this characteristic.

Ocassionally small animals just pop up in normal cows. I raise miniatures intentionally bred from miniature parents. Recently though I acquired a miniature heifer, from a proven 'normal' bull and cow, that at 5 1/2 months is 26-28" high at the pins and weighs (guestimate) 100-125 pounds tops. She is exactly the same size as my last 'miniature' calf, born six weeks ago, that was 26 inches at birth and 38 pounds at one week. Normally at 6 month my miniatures will be 32-34 inches and 200+ pounds.

Yes, miniatures can bring more than 'normal' cows but not normally at the local sale barn where people are basically selling meat not breeding stock. Best price is to advertise them on one of the miniaure cattle boards.

 

[JMichal]

One simple question. How good is his meat? May not be alot their, but if it's prime I'll eat it. And want more. POWER TO THE DWARF : :?: :roll: :stop: D

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Ok I stand corrected.
DWARF, MINITURE, REALLY SMALL IN STATURE, MIDGET, SHORT PEOPLE...ETC.
Doesn't really matter to me what I call it. Just was wondering bout the causes of it. But I am gonna wait and see what her next calf looks like just cause I'm curious and since I paid the cost to be the boss that's just how it goes. Maybe I will eat the next one if it's dog size morsal. Gotta be betteren road kill.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Yes, miniatures can bring more than 'normal' cows but not normally at the local sale barn where people are basically selling meat not breeding stock. Best price is to advertise them on one of the miniaure cattle boards.

If she has another one, I wiil be glad to sell it to you @ a higher price of course. :roll:

 

[Brandonm2]

I wasn't aware that we had a midget gene in cattle, Doc. If that is correct, mine would probably be more correctly defined as a "midget". All I know is that I crossed a ~1900 lb Purebred bull to a ~1200 lb 3/4 cow of the same breed (not a Hereford) and got a DINK....bigtime DINK! I don't think he was a minnie. Those were bred down from frame one cows. This sprung from a frame 5/4 mating over night and was part of a good commercial calf crop that probably avged ~580. IF I had been smart enough to anticipate the mini-cattle movement, I would have left him intact and been a millionaire (I slapped an elastrator band on his nuts when he surprised me by living to be 30 days old).

He wasn't prime; but he was very tender although he was mostly grass fattened with the heifers.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Brandonm2-

You misunderstood my reference. The last two words are the 'key' to the difference between Dwarf and Midget. Dwarf can be animal OR human. Midget relates to human only. P.T.Barnum's "Tom Thumb" was a Midget.


Dwarf and Midget are two different individual animals.

A dwarf refers to any individual (human or animal) that is considerably smaller than the average for the species and sometimes implies malformation or disproportion of parts; midget refers to a NORMALLY formed and proportioned, but diminutive human being.

DOC HARRIS

 

[ROCK-N-W]

So what your saying is you don't think on her next calf. She has a chance of dropping a 80lb calf that weens out at over 500 lbs? I got a new Char bull I could put on her, but I'm afraid I would lose both.

 

[Brandonm2]

If we are talking about the mother of the dwarf. Then there is a 25% chance of her dropping another dwarf IF bred to a dwarf gene carrier (ie your last bull). If bred to a non-dwarf gene carrier (ie the overwhelming majority of the nation's cattle herd) she will NEVER drop another dwarf as long as she lives. 50% of the time she will transmit the dwarf gene to her calves and they will be carriers of the condition. So this is a defect that you will carry with this cow family (if you and them both last that long) probably to the end of time. You will never see another dwarf though....until you use a bull that is a carrier for dwarfism. The presence of a true dwarf confirms that:that bull carries the gene and that that cow carries the gene.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Well she has been rebreed to a diferent bull, a black Angus.
Like I said before The Dam nor the Sire has ever thrown any dwarfs before and I have lots of calf's off each that have been perfectly normal. As far as me making it. I proberly been doing this since you was kicking slats outa your craddle./b]
As far as the cow that had the shorty we'll see in the next few months one way or the other. I have no plans on keeping any calfs off her any way. I'm maxed out

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Well she has been rebreed to a diferent bull, a black Angus.
Like I said before The Dam nor the Sire has ever thrown any dwarfs before and I have lots of calf's off each that have been perfectly normal. As far as me making it. I

• proberly been doing this since you was kicking slats outa your craddle

./b]
As far as the cow that had the shorty we'll see in the next few months one way or the other. I have no plans on keeping any calfs off her any way. I'm maxed out

:lol: your kidd'in right?

 

[Brandonm2]

So you have been messing with registered Angus cattle for more than four decades and you never read or encountered anything about dwarfism until this calf????

 

[Oldtimer]

There is now a test for the genetic marker of the Dwarf gene carriers...Now it is to try and figure out how to use it...And what the protocol will be about releasing the info to the public about which bloodlines show up as carriers....Rumors are already circulating in the angus circles of some of the top bulls that were shown to be positive, found just during the development of this test....

As normal those are all probably just rumors-- But can you imagine just having purchased a $250,000-300,000 bull to put up for AI stud- and then have it found he is a dwarf carrier?

There is quite a discussion about it at the following website:

http://www.advantagecattle.com/forum/to ... IC_ID=2393

 

[ROCK-N-W]

I have herd of dwarism, but I have just never incountered it till now. Thats why I started asking questions about it.
I have given the reg numbers on the Sire and Cow to someone else on the forum, (no names mentioned) who is is being kind enough to go thru the geneaolgy of the dam and sires and look for any potential carriers.
But I don't run all purebreed angus I have a commercial herd, which I put in various registered sires. Also have some reg Angus cows and Chars & beefmasters.
Guys it just a simple question I started with what's some of the causes could be? What I do with my calfs or cows is my business, but if you don't exsperiment with with you have. You cannot have first hand knowledge.. Rasing Cattle is not a perfect world.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have herd of dwarism, but I have just never incountered it till now. Thats why I started asking questions about it.
I have given the reg numbers on the Sire and Cow to someone else on the forum, (no names mentioned) who is is being kind enough to go thru the geneaolgy of the dam and sires and look for any potential carriers.
But I don't run all purebreed angus I have a commercial herd, which I put in various registered sires. Also have some reg Angus cows and Chars & beefmasters.
Guys it just a simple question I started with what's some of the causes could be? What I do with my calfs or cows is my business, but if you don't exsperiment with with you have. You cannot have first hand knowledge.. Rasing Cattle is not a perfect world.

ROCK-N-W--

The cause of dwarfism is "The Dwarf Gene." The Board was merely attempting to describe how it works, and where it comes from. If you have a Bull AND a cow with the gene - you have a chance of getting a dwarf calf.

DOC HARRIS

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Doc, I will also give you the reg #s if you like so far I can't find it, but honestly I might not be as good at spotting it as you may be. I just didn't care for one of the insinuations made that I might not be around because one of my Angus cows had a dwarf. That's absurd. Honestly how many of you guys have had a cow that has thrown a dwarf? I have had one and I don't think it's the cow or bull, I think it's the result of a first time hieffer being bred too young at the time of some really bad environmental conditions. That's just from my common sense aspect of it. & when she has her next calf I will know for sure. Cause I have had over 75 calfs from that Bull in a 3 year period that we're normal.
I may be wrong but I will find out when she drops again. He may not have even been a dwarf but he sure looked like one to me. If it is a dwarf now I will know to market it separately, or eat it one.[/b]

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Doc, I will also give you the reg #s if you like so far I can't find it,

• at spotting it as you may bbut honestly I might not be as good

e. I just didn't care for one of the insinuations made that I might not be around because one of my Angus cows had a dwarf. That's absurd. Honestly how many of you guys have had a cow that has thrown a dwarf? I have had one and I don't think it's the cow or bull, I think it's the result of a first time hieffer being bred too young at the time of some really bad environmental conditions. That's just from my common sense aspect of it. & when she has her next calf I will know for sure. Cause I have had over 75 calfs from that Bull in a 3 year period that we're normal.
I may be wrong but I will find out when she drops again. He may not have even been a dwarf but he sure looked like one to me. If it is a dwarf now I will know to market it separately, or eat it one.[/b]

you will be as good at spott'in it as doc. it aint visable to the eye and it aint the enviroment that caused it either. listen the way the dwarf gene exspess's itself. is when two carriers are mated together it's that simple .

 

[ROCK-N-W]

So if I breed her back to a bull that does not have the gene. It has a good chance of being Ok. and since the Bull was breed to a lot of other cows with out the gene that's why they we're also ok? That would make since to me.

 

[Brandonm2]

Exactly. As long as you use bulls that do NOT have the dwarf gene you will NEVER see another dwarf no matter how many of your cows are carriers. Our big problem is that the only way we know we have a carrier is when they throw a dwarf and I think the Angus association only reports the bulls that the owner has certified as a dwarf carrier, which is why the list is so surprisingly short.

 

[ROCK-N-W]

Sometimes ya gotta hit me over the head, but I gotcha now.
Thanks