Where did this old wise tale come from

[plbcattle]

I hear more than ever that people don't want to use bulls or females out of first calf heifers. When you ask why not they don't know only that they heard it. Some of the best animals are from newer genetics out of first calf heifers. Some even say that the calf wont have all the same potential as one from an older cow. I bet this started because heifers tend to maybe wean a little lighter calf but is you study EPD's and breed right the heifers milk fine and can raise a great calf. old timers with a lot more knowledge than me can maybe shed some light on this. Thanks

 

[msscamp]

I can't help but wonder if maybe this fallacy didn't get started because people didn't have proper management in place for first calf heifers, they subsequently weaned small calves, and the fault was placed on the heifers rather than management. Just my thoughts.

 

[lacattleman 16]

Normally, most people wean a first calf early to let the heifer finish growing and also breed right back for a calf the following year. When this is done it slows down the calf's growth. But also the baby doesn't have the room to grow with the cows body being very tight compared to a older cow. Most times the calf is a little bit smaller when it is matured compared to the third or forth calf off the same cow. And depending on your bull selection it could cause problems at the time of birth.

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

I suspect this tale has come about from another saying "better to be safe than sorry". Since a heifer's offspring will _generally_ grow a little slower and mature a little later, its more difficult to determine whether its going to make a good breeding animal later in its life. So I think many will simply pass on the animal as they aren't sure what its true genetic potential is.

Rod

 

[flaboy-]

I don't know but it has been passed down to me from Great Grandpa to Grandpa to Dad. Great Grandpa and Grandpa ran a diary for many years down here. My Dad was the first to go beef stock. They all said the same thing.

 

[sidney411]

I think it may have some bearing to the point that a lot of people used poor scrubby easy calving bulls of the heifers which they would never use on full grown cows. A lot of people breed their beef heifers to jersey and longhorns to get a small calf, so those calves won't be as good as the one's they will have bred to a good bull. Now if they bred the heifer to the same bull for her 2nd calf, both calves would have the same genetic potential. The only diference would be nutritional and management.

 

[mnmtranching]

It seems to me that a generation age we had a lot more trouble calving heifers. Ranchers most of the time used the same herd bulls on cows and heifers. Now with all the genetics we have available we are using the right bulls on our heifers.Calving heifers is easier, plus in most cases heifers are bigger. There's less strain on first calvers and their calves, so saving replacements or breeding bulls from 1st calf heifers is not a problem these days.

 

[BRG]

I keep these heifers to use, but I can understand why some say not to. These heifers are typically out of a calving ease bull, so they will be a little finer boned, and maybe a little more shallow made animal compared to your cow bulls. This will ussually make harder doing animals. Then they won't quite have the performance either. To go along with it, if you breed a calving ease bull to heifers that are out of calving ease genetics you can and will shrink the pelvics(?spelling?) on your cows. This will in turn in the long run give you females that will be harder calving cows. But if you are a good manager, you can match these females up with the right kind of bulls and they will work for you. Like it was stated earlier, they are your newest and should be your best genetics on the ranch.

 

[randiliana]

I think sidney411 hit the nail on the head. There are so many people out ther that buy a bull for heifers on BW ONLY. I have seen so many of these bulls that wouldn't have even made a good steer go out to people for "heifer bulls". They have really light BW, but their adjusted WW are just way to low...

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Its all management. that first calf takes a toll on a heifer which can lead to less milk production smaller calves. most of the old cattlemen would let the heifer come apart. the old tale i have never understood is that you can breed a sire too his daughters the first with no ill effects inbreeding wise

 

[cherokeeruby]

We usually keep a heifer out of a first calving. With Brahmans it is not necessary to choose a calving ease bull since the Brahman cow regulates the size of the calf.

 

[Rustler9]

I've heard this all of my life but won't hesitate to keep a calf out of a first calf heifer myself. I think it used to be because of the nutrition in the old days that we have now improved. Probably, the heifer's first calves didn't grow as well due to a number of things. Poorer nutrition, maybe breeding heifers too early or using a small poor doing bull to get smaller calves. Of course, with my breed of choice we don't have to worry about problems with calving as a rule, calving ease is one of the benefits of the Longhorn breed even though alot of folks on this board don't care for them.

 

[VanC]

To go along with it, if you breed a calving ease bull to heifers that are out of calving ease genetics you can and will shrink the pelvics(?spelling?) on your cows. This will in turn in the long run give you females that will be harder calving cows.

Is this true? If so, why?

 

[dun]

To go along with it, if you breed a calving ease bull to heifers that are out of calving ease genetics you can and will shrink the pelvics(?spelling?) on your cows. This will in turn in the long run give you females that will be harder calving cows.

Is this true? If so, why?

Not all calving ease bulls throw daughters that are harder calving. Just as not all high BW bulls throw easy calving daughters. That's where the managment and selection comes in.

dun

 

[BRG]

I didn't mean to imply all calving ease bulls will do this, I meant the typical calving ease bull will, but not all. But it happens because when you breed calving ease to calving ease, you are breeding tighter made, lighter muscled, shallower bellied, finer boned critters to each other and you will usually loose performance and capacity, along with smaller pelvics and finer bones. But not always!!!

 

[Beefy]

i think it stems more from just not knowing as much as we know now. I mean, now we KNOW that a heifer requires excellent nutrition b/c she is growing, lactating, and trying to breed back. we can also take advantage of epds if we so choose and select sires with lower birthweights. i would venture to say for the most part we have better management practices than they did 'back then'. we have more answers to the "why" questions.

b/c we know that heifers have such high demands, we can meet those rather than wondering why they dont wean calves as good as there momma did or come up open and get sold. rather than using the most impressive looking massive bull and wondering why we got dead heifers and pulled the others OR picking a little bitty squirt cow-freshener, we now can select an easy calving bull that also has acceptable growth traits.

 

[msscamp]

I'm curious about something - Why is it that so many people apparently have to see things as a 'study' or a 'research paper' from some kind of institution or source they consider to be an 'authority' (no, I'm not knocking anyone or anything) in order to accept something as truth? I know that common sense isn't all that common anymore, but it looks to me like if one had a heifer that was growing good and maintaining her body condition, then she calves and subsequently starts pulling down that that would be a red flag for her owner that she needs more feed - particularly if this had happened over 2 or more years - assuming the health program was up to snuff. Am I wrong? Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

 

[Beefy]

i dont understand that either. A lot of studies and most research papers i find laughable. especially after knowing some of the professors that have their names on them and even moreso knowing some of the students that did the work that the professor put his name on. lol.

i can sort of understand people who dont know much about a subject taking an authority's word for it. like when an ag teacher tells his students that a saw will cut his finger off and shows you the stub, you sort of believe him.

but for people who know the logistics behind a concept and can understand why a certain practice works or doesnt work, i dont understand why they need a study to verify everything. nothing is more annoying than someone you have to prove EVERYTHING to.

 

[Bullbuyer]

Here's my 2 cents worth: I agree with the research paper thing - it can be useless or at best anecdotal. I will say this on the subject of keeping calves from first calf heifers - we don't do it. In our group right now, I have some 10-12 year old cows that have raised better calves the last 2-3 years than when they were 4 year olds - same bull genetics, feed, eveything - only variable is cow's age. When I say better calves I mean calves that have grown better, weaned heavier, and of course sold higher. I did sell one load of heifers out of these cows for replacements and the first question the guy asked, "Are they out of old cows?"

 

[BRG]

"Are they out of old cows?" That is a good Question, because if someone wants a proven line or wants to increase the longevity in a cow, then keep replacements from older proven cows that have done it over the years.