When is terminal not terminal

[cypressfarms]

O.k.,

Another one to stir the pot.

Many people talk about using "terminal" type bulls to produce large calves to add more "frogs", as caustic would say, to their pocket.

One widely accepted breed of bull to perform this function is Charolais.

What is the problem with keeping heifers from such a bull, assuming the bull is phenotypically correct, has the milk epd's etc.?

There are several larger cattle farms in our area that use Char. bulls and sell all of the offspring, and buy replacement heifers. If the right bull could be found with good "numbers", what's the problem with keeping replacements.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

Because they're CROSSBRED!!!!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH ( ;-) )

 

[Dave]

Personal preference, management system, etc. There is nothing wrong with it if you think it will fit into your plan or you think it will work for you. One of the main reasons for not doing it is keeping a uniform group of cows.

 

[randiliana]

Terminal only means that it is a terminal cross in your "own" herd. This does not mean that the heifers could not go on to become cows in someone else's herd. However, many times the reason you don't want to buy "terminal" heifers is because the people that produced them were only paying attention to the growth and not necessarily to the milk or maternal side of things.

We were using Gelbveih in our herd as a "terminal" cross. All that really meant was that we did not plan to keep the heifers that were Gelbveih cross. It worked for us as the calves all grew out wonderfully. All of the heifers were bought from us off the farm, wintered and bred this summer. We have seen them and they look darn good. They will make someone a great set of cows, but they didn't fit into what we want our cows to be (British). Gelbveih, at least to me is a very maternal breed, but they also have the growth that we were looking for in a terminal cross.

So what I would say to you is that if you want those "type" of animals in your herd, and can see the maternal/milk EPD's of the bulls that were used, go ahead and buy them. There would be nothing wrong with them, just that they didn't fit with what the producer wanted his cows to be.

 

[BC]

The reason those calves are considered "terminal" is that the added growth through yearling weight epd's will increase mature cow size. By keeping those heifers you gradually increase the size of cow you run and increase the maintenance cost of keeping larger cows.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

to me it has a lot too do with your cows as to what breed of terminal bull too use. i can use a angus bull on my simbrah cows for a terminal calf . or simmental bull for term calves and angus bull for a maternal sire. ive used herford as terminal or maternal also. no matter what bull you use theres gotta be a milk waggon wait'n on them calves when they hit the ground. cause a poor milker can make a jersey calf out of a charolas

 

[ALACOWMAN]

The reason those calves are considered "terminal" is that the added growth through yearling weight epd's will increase mature cow size. By keeping those heifers you gradually increase the size of cow you run and increase the maintenance cost of keeping larger cows.

yep theres a good a reason as any

 

[cypressfarms]

The reason those calves are considered "terminal" is that the added growth through yearling weight epd's will increase mature cow size. By keeping those heifers you gradually increase the size of cow you run and increase the maintenance cost of keeping larger cows.

yep theres a good a reason as any

Good points ALA and BC. That's the type of discussion I was hoping to engage. I've posted a couple of strings: this one and the one about cross bred bulls to only challenge the "normal" way of thinking, and to get people to develop reasoning for those closely held beliefs (Like they can only used registered bulls)

 

[aplusmnt]

Probably depend on your herd type and goals as the future of your herd. If a person has a herd that varies in cow size and design then they might work just fine. But like us we are trying to build a herd that is moderate in size and uniform in type. If we threw in a Char bull its calves would most likely not meet the future direction I want our herd to go.

 

[J]

I always figured it would take more to maintain a bigger cow (charlios X) for a year than a smaller cow bred to a charlios bull to produce a bigger calf? Did that make sense?

 

[andybob]

There are many people who practisse rotational crossbreeding;Brahman-Siimental-Angus then the half Angus return to the Brahman in the rotation. In this scenario, the Simental might normally be considered a terminal but would be selected with replacement hiefers of a more moderate frame in mind.

 

[Texan]

I always figured it would take more to maintain a bigger cow (charlios X) for a year than a smaller cow bred to a charlios bull to produce a bigger calf? Did that make sense?

It makes excellent sense to me. I agree completely.

 

[VanC]

The way I see it, once some of a bulls heifers are retained he is no longer a "terminal" bull, no matter what he was originally bred for. Terminal means just that. All his calves go to market. Kind of knit-picky I suppose, but that's my opinion.

To me it's all about balance, especially if you're doing rotational crossbreeding. The best bulls are those that will give you good feeder calves AND good heifers. Calving ease, but not tiny calves. Growth, but not huge monsters that will eat you out of house and home. Milk, but not so much that she can't hold her weight on grass and breed back. Fertility, longevity, carcass, and on and on.

Some breeds are historically maternal and some historically terminal, but now it's getting harder to tell them apart. In trying to be all things to all people, some breeds are losing their identity. Maybe that's a good thing and I just don't see it.

 

[S.R.R.]

Simply put, If your "terminal bull" is producing the kind of heifers that you want added to your herd he is NOT a terminal bull. Period!

 

[Aero]

The reason those calves are considered "terminal" is that the added growth through yearling weight epd's will increase mature cow size. By keeping those heifers you gradually increase the size of cow you run and increase the maintenance cost of keeping larger cows.

BINGO!!

 

[AngusLimoX]

However, many times the reason you don't want to buy "terminal" heifers is because the people that produced them were only paying attention to the growth and not necessarily to the milk or maternal side of things.

Why does someone who uses a "terminal" bull not spay and sell the heifers?? You use a terminal to produce great feedlot cattle, I don't get where you are going here??

I don't want cows from my place that I intended to be terminal as being touted as maternal cows??

Terminal mating means to me that offspring do not live to breed.??
Has something changed?

 

[ONLY-BEEF]

Mister cypressfarms I was a thinkin ya new better but it seems ta me ya aint got a clue. Ifen ya take yur self a bull that ya think will throw ya heifers a look like steers an steers looken like bulls that there is a terminal sire!! Ifen ya keep nar a one O them calves ya aint thinken straight and aint got yur self a future in cattlen a,tall. Yur gonna have cows that eat ya right offen the ranch! I aint tryen ta knock ya down but get yur self some learnen before its too late fur ya!

 

[ALACOWMAN]

well ob this is about a good place to learn as any. one mans terminal bull might be a nothers maternal...... terminal ...... mean the.........end if its a dexter or a charolias its the end result no matter what

 

[S.R.R.]

one mans terminal bull might be a nothers maternal......

Yes you may be right but then I would feel real sorry for the man that kept any of my terminal heifers as cows for their herd! They had better have a heck of alot of cheap hay or good pasture to feed them or they will go broke trying!

No I have to disagree with you ALACOWMAN please look up the word terminal! In no way does it imply something that is lasting. A terminal bull is just that ALL calves get their throat cut when the time is right.

 

[aplusmnt]

Mister cypressfarms I was a thinkin ya new better but it seems ta me ya aint got a clue. Ifen ya take yur self a bull that ya think will throw ya heifers a look like steers an steers looken like bulls that there is a terminal sire!! Ifen ya keep nar a one O them calves ya aint thinken straight and aint got yur self a future in cattlen a,tall. Yur gonna have cows that eat ya right offen the ranch! I aint tryen ta knock ya down but get yur self some learnen before its too late fur ya!

I didn't realize that a Terminal bull throws heifers that looked like steers and steers that look like bulls. Thought it was more to do with pounds not phenotype.

I wish my bull would throw me some steers that looked like bulls. Guess my Bull is a dud, he only throws Bull calves and Heifers.