What's reasonable?

[TheBullLady]

For you registered breeders, I have a question.

Bought a heifer at a sale over a year ago.. third high selling lot, excellent pedigree, etc. etc. Hauled her to Denver, then to Alabama, then here to Texas. AI'd her to an easy calving bull. In April, she got sick (discussed awhile back on a different board) hauled her to A & M, where they found she had a big calf inside that was laying on an intestine and blocking her. They induced labor, she couldn't calve vaginally, so they did a C-section. The calf was 90 lbs 5 weeks early. The calf only lived a couple of days.. the cow spent a week there. Brought her home, she developed a uterine infection, went back to A & M for a week of treatment. Long story short.. about $2100 in vet bills.

Subsequently, I had her DNA profile run because I was suspicious at this point as to why the calf would have been so big, especially after closely matching EPDS. She doesn't match to her AI sire.

I called the breeder last night, he of course was apologetic, said he was going to talk to his dad and call me back and try to work something out. My question is this.. what do you think is fair and equitable as far as what he owes me? The cow was going to be a donor cow, so I'm actually glad this happened now, as opposed to after she'd been flushed and had progeny on the ground from that! I want to be FAIR, but I'm so emotionally involved in this now I don't know if I'm being reasonable.

He mentioned last night that perhaps that same dam had a heifer calf last year that was available, but frankly, I don't want to deal with them on another animal. I'd like my $$ back so I can lick my wounds and go on. Is this fair? Do you think they should be responsible for anything besides the replacement value?

Thanks for your help and suggestions!

 

[EAT BEEF]

There should be a set of sale terms in the back of the sale book.You deserve a refund for the purchase price for sure.I would think it would be in the breeders best intrest to give you a refund on your vet bill as well but he may not have to under the law.

 

[bigbull338]

there was a set of sale terms an rules in the sale catalog.an the gurentee is 6 months in most all cases.so the gurentee has expired.but there hasnt been any reason or problems to cause them to doubt the show heifers breeding.until you had problems calving her out.an then you decided to run a DNA test.the only other thing you can do is report the prob to the breed assoc.

 

[plbcattle]

I think a refund on the cattle is in line. the vet bills might be another story. I know some places will tell you to just sell them and they will give you a refund. They will argue that all that $ didnt have to be spent on vet bills.

 

[CPL]

I think a refund is probably right, but not the vet bills. I got to thinking about this early this morning and wondered if some of us are putting too much emphasis on pedigree, EPDs, etc. and we've stopped putting enough focus on the animal. Mistakes happen, There have been plenty of top bulls atleast in the Hereford breed that once they do a DNA test on are out of a different bull. One question I have for breeders that do alot of intensive AI, how do you know if the calf was late from the AI date or early from the clean up date?

 

[MikeC]

A "Mistake" is one thing, "Misrepresentation" is another. Proper AI'ing and recordkeeping is not rocket science. (If there was not a "cover bull" or "pasture exposed" clause mentioned in the catalog or at the sale.)

I would ask for the purchase price, the hauling, and the vet bills back minus the salvage value of the animal at the sale barn - to use for a starting point.

 

[KNERSIE]

A "Mistake" is one thing, "Misrepresentation" is another. Proper AI'ing and recordkeeping is not rocket science. (If there was not a "cover bull" or "pasture exposed" clause mentioned in the catalog or at the sale.)

I would ask for the purchase price, the hauling, and the vet bills back minus the salvage value of the animal at the sale barn - to use for a starting point.

I agree, selling a false pedigree is fraud. I'd take the heifer back and get all the money you spent back and squeeze it out of the breeder if he doesn't make it right by own will.

 

[Frankie]

For you registered breeders, I have a question.

Bought a heifer at a sale over a year ago.. third high selling lot, excellent pedigree, etc. etc. Hauled her to Denver, then to Alabama, then here to Texas. AI'd her to an easy calving bull. In April, she got sick (discussed awhile back on a different board) hauled her to A & M, where they found she had a big calf inside that was laying on an intestine and blocking her. They induced labor, she couldn't calve vaginally, so they did a C-section. The calf was 90 lbs 5 weeks early. The calf only lived a couple of days.. the cow spent a week there. Brought her home, she developed a uterine infection, went back to A & M for a week of treatment. Long story short.. about $2100 in vet bills.

Subsequently, I had her DNA profile run because I was suspicious at this point as to why the calf would have been so big, especially after closely matching EPDS. She doesn't match to her AI sire.

I called the breeder last night, he of course was apologetic, said he was going to talk to his dad and call me back and try to work something out. My question is this.. what do you think is fair and equitable as far as what he owes me? The cow was going to be a donor cow, so I'm actually glad this happened now, as opposed to after she'd been flushed and had progeny on the ground from that! I want to be FAIR, but I'm so emotionally involved in this now I don't know if I'm being reasonable.

He mentioned last night that perhaps that same dam had a heifer calf last year that was available, but frankly, I don't want to deal with them on another animal. I'd like my $$ back so I can lick my wounds and go on. Is this fair? Do you think they should be responsible for anything besides the replacement value?

Thanks for your help and suggestions!

That's a shame. IMO, you should at the very least get the purchase price back. After that, it's whatever you feel you deserve and can get. If you thnk the breeder knowingly misrepresented the heifer's breeding, get all you can. But if you think he made an honest mistake, consider that we're dealing with living creatures here. EPDs, pedigrees are wonderful, but you'll get an occasional monkey wrench thrown in the works. Good luck.....

 

[novatech]

Does not make one bit of difference wither it was an honest mistake or not. The buyer did not get what they paid for. That alone is enough reason to be refunded all. The buyer should have notified seller as soon as the results were in.
When one is in business honest mistakes will be made. The honest thing to do is take care of your mistake.

 

[TexasBred]

I bought some registered cattle last Sept. One aborted in early April....called and they said bring her back. Took her back and they refunded my money plus what I paid to have her hauled when I bought her plus covered the cost to haul her back to them.

 

[TheBullLady]

I appreciate the responses so far.. and please be aware that I'm not trying to "get all I can".. I'm trying to be FAIR as well. I realize mistakes can be made.. but if, as a breeder, the heifer was being represented as being out of this very popular AI sire, wouldn't it be the breeders responsibility to make sure she actually was? There was not a clause in the sale catalog stating that the heifer was out of anything other than the AI bull.

 

[KNERSIE]

I bought some registered cattle last Sept. One aborted in early April....called and they said bring her back. Took her back and they refunded my money plus what I paid to have her hauled when I bought her plus covered the cost to haul her back to them.

In this case unless she tested positive for PI BVD or brucellosis, I would just take that in my stride as one of those things that happen when you mess with cattle. Very good breeder to do business with.

 

[Frankie]

I appreciate the responses so far.. and please be aware that I'm not trying to "get all I can".. I'm trying to be FAIR as well. I realize mistakes can be made.. but if, as a breeder, the heifer was being represented as being out of this very popular AI sire, wouldn't it be the breeders responsibility to make sure she actually was? There was not a clause in the sale catalog stating that the heifer was out of anything other than the AI bull.

Well, if you think he was not being honest, you should get all you can, IMO. if you make it cost him enough, maybe he won't do it to someone else. Yes, it was the breeder's responsibility to be sure she was what he advertised. Is this breeder new to the cattle business or breed? We don't buy many cows anymore, but are pretty picky about who we buy from. Were there suggested terms and conditions printed in the sale catalog? Did he explain to you how she might have been sired by a bull other than the AI bull? Did you buy it? Who wrote the catalog notes? Sale manager or the seller?

 

[Avalon]

They definatley owe you a full refund for her. A case may be made for all expenses. you bred her based on the information they gave you. Damage was caused to you because "they" gave you faulty information. In a court of law you could probably even ask for damages. After all you lost a full years production off of a "donor prospect"

 

[Busterz]

I appreciate the responses so far.. and please be aware that I'm not trying to "get all I can".. I'm trying to be FAIR as well. I realize mistakes can be made.. but if, as a breeder, the heifer was being represented as being out of this very popular AI sire, wouldn't it be the breeders responsibility to make sure she actually was? There was not a clause in the sale catalog stating that the heifer was out of anything other than the AI bull.

The breeder has a responsibility to sell what they are advertising or listing in their sale catalog. Most people who are buying a purebred animal are paying for the genetics that are listed in the sale catalog. If thats not what you got they should take they animal back and since the genetics are unknown and they may be the cause of the c-section, etc. they should pay for that too, especially if they are taking the animal back.

The legal term is being "made whole" to get you back to where you were before this started. That would mean taking the animal back and refunding your purchase price and all your expenses. They probably won't want to do that, they will probably offer you some type of replacement/substitute instead of cash, then you'll have to decide what you want to do.

If you want to take another shot at it with them and accept a subsitute (or substitutes) you'll probably want to get the dna verification before you accept a substitute (keep in mind if they were being honest then they probably got ripped off too by somebody they bought a bull or semen from).

I'd probably see what they offer to do but make sure I was factoring in all of my expenses (sale price, transportation, vet bills, etc.) . Make sure you get enough value out ofthe situation.

It probably wouldn't be worth going to court unless your damages are over $10,000. Thats just the way it works when you account for attorney fees. So keep that in mind too. You would need proof of lost income to get damages in excess of the out of pocket expenses you've paid. It would probably be tough to prove. Also if it went to court they may argue that your bull or a neighbors bull was the cause of the large calf and so they aren't responsible for those related expenses. And since the calf has been destroyed (I assume) there would be no way to prove the sire of the calf.

I'd try to stay out of court, they should be willing to work with you because they shouldn't want this to get out. Their herd may be "polluted" ( best case scenario the AI guy used the wrong semen and its a one time mistake, worst case scenario they have unknowingly corrupted their breeding program and have no idea what they've got without dna testing everything) and I doubt they want this to get out. Every guy who bought an animal from them could come running back wanting a dna test every time they get a calf they don't like.

 

[Horticattleman]

I feel you deserve your money back for the purchase price plus the hauling. Not all over the country, but something reasonable. As for all the vet bills, I know you said you didn't want their stock, but maybe he could cover the vet bills with some more heifers.

 

[Matt Schiel]

Hey Bulllady,

I would get my money back on your purchase price. If the breeder offers to pay for damages then I would give him the vet bills also. You can tell the ASA about this, but they will probably do nothing about it

Matt

 

[ANAZAZI]

Does not make one bit of difference wither it was an honest mistake or not. The buyer did not get what they paid for. That alone is enough reason to be refunded all. The buyer should have notified seller as soon as the results were in.
When one is in business honest mistakes will be made. The honest thing to do is take care of your mistake.

I am no reg breeder but I am concurring with novatech

 

[bigbull338]

hold it guys heres the facts she bought a show heifer.showed her all over.brought her home an bred her.an when she was ready to calve did a C-section to get the calf.then she did the DNA test an foundout the calf did not match the sire an dam.wich means the calf came from a herd bull or another AI sire.now since this a reg heifer she can report the breeder to his breed assoc.an let them deal with him on replacing the heifer or refunding the money.me being a reg breeder i try to keep the best records i can.so i know wich cow is bred to what bull.but if i ever get in doubt.i would us DNA testing if i was selling a bull or heifer for big money.

 

[Avalon]

Naturally you should take this up with the breeder and association. But here is what the law might say.

The breeder should be required to pay the $2100 in vet bills, the cost of transportation, and any other cost directly tied to the incident and shown by invoices or receipts and such. That would be the easy part. One can't get paid for potential money that was lost, because courts aren't in the practice of guessing what might have been -- too questionable.
Since he's offering another animal, if you feel like making out a little better than just breaking even you could ask that he do all the above, buy back the cow, and sell you that other one for a slightly reduced cost and DNA verifycation that it is who they claim she is. Just some ideas on that last line.
Basically: recoup expenses due to the error, get the money back for the faulty animal, then ask for a deal to make up for the time and "untangible" factors.