What would you do?

[red one]

A bull was sold to a guy ("Bob") that was a calving ease bull. "Pete" ran some purebred heifers (of a different breed than the bull, approx. 20 head or so) with "Bob's" crossbred heifers. "Pete" then sold some of these heifers to "Jim". Recently, "Jim" called "Pete" and told "Pete" that they have pulled every calf, all calves have died, and have lost 1 cow due to big calves. "Pete" has pulled several calves, 3 of which were born dead.

"Bob" has pulled 3 calves out of his 40 head. The pulls were no harder than normal, most needing just a hand pull, all calves have been born alive. He's noticed BW's are a little higher than normal.

Data on the bull in question:
- Bull had calving ease EPDs according to the breed association, and a low BW.
- According to seller, bull's dam BW average is 70 lbs. Other bull calves out of the dam were sold for heifer bulls, no problems with them.
- Bull's sire was promoted as a heifer bull AI Sire.
- Bull's sire averages a 75 lb. BW on 500 progeny.
- Seller is calving heifers sired by this calving ease AI bull, and have had no calving difficulties.

"Bob" would just like a replacement for the bull, and is just assuming a gene popped up somewhere causing the bw problems. "Pete" wants compensation for the heifer and calves that were lost. There are unknowns in: pelvic areas and size/history or background of "Pete's" heifers, and management practices in both feeding and calving. What does the seller owe "Pete" and "Jim"?

The seller asked me what I'd do, and besides replacing the bull for "Bob", I'm not sure what kind of compensation there would be for "Pete" or "Jim". What do you all think?

 

[chippie]

Ok, let me get this straight.
Pete's heifers were bred to Bob's calving ease bull and they are the ones that had problems calving - right?
And Bob's crossbred heifers had minimal problems calving - correct?

I can see replacing the bull for Bob, but I really don't know about the seller being responsible for Pete's and Jim's cattle. Do they have actual weights on the calves that they consider larger than normal? Something else is how long did they let the cows go before assisting them? Some people wait too long and then it is too late. As you said, too many unknowns including management practices.

 

[ChrisB]

The only thing I would somewhat disagree with Chippie on is that I don't think the seller should even consider replacing the bull for Bob. The seller didn't sell a bull to Pete and Jim, and even if he did I don't thing many breeders would guarantee live calves and no calving problems. Unless the seller lied about the EPD's he should do nothing and sleep easy at night.

 

[chippie]

Bob" has pulled 3 calves out of his 40 head. The pulls were no harder than normal, most needing just a hand pull, all calves have been born alive. He's noticed BW's are a little higher than normal.

Maybe I did not word my answer well. I can see the seller offering to replace the bull if the seller felt that it did not produce a low birth weight calf, but it would be up to the seller to decide. I would not ask the seller to replace it, but if Bob wants to tell the seller that the birth weights were higher than expected that would be OK. I would not ask the seller to replace the bull.
Each is an individual and what looks good on paper may not pan out.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i think this should be on the breeds board..... that when you go outside the perspective breeds... you pretty much can shove those breed epds in a hogs behind and hollar sooiee

 

[red one]

Chippie - Correct, Pete ran his heifers with Bob's bull. As far as I know, the original buyer (Bob) does not take birth weights. They are going off of looking at the calf's size, bone, and lifting the calf.

Pete's calves are arriving between 7 and 10 lbs heavier than his cows' calves, don't really know how much that tells, but one calf was supposedly 100 lbs out of a heifer.

Don't think there is any lying about the EPDs or actual weights on the bulls, the seller would be out of business if he kept that up .

I was telling the seller I think there may be some management issues. Yeah, the bull threw some big calves, but I gave him the example of myself AI-ing a couple heifers to Mytty In Focus last year and had two come out at 90+ lbs, but I didn't kill the calf or the cow when I pulled them out.

 

[red one]

I'll move it there Ala